To my XW, it is almost like the entire affair was part of an EPISODE she experienced. She seems to even lump cheating on OM with OM2 as part of the same episode.
I'm so glad you explained it this way. I think I thought of it like an episode. I never realized it in those terms, but I can see how I put everything connected to the A in a time frame. It's like some people who use a serious operation as a time marker. There is the life before the operation and the life afterwards.
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Does she regret it? Absolutely! But as much as I -- as an LBS -- want to get an apology for each offense, she can't provide that. She apologizes for the situation. The cheating. The lies. But I've come to realize that it is very difficult for her to apologize for many of the individual attacks.
My H didn't bring it up, but I'm sure it would have felt very defeating for me.....since I was trying to do the right thing. The night I had my "come to Jesus" and finally felt true remorse and gave him a humble apology for my actions........that would have probably been the time for him to bring up individual offenses. But he didn't want to talk about it. If he had come back at a later time and brought up some specific incident, I could see myself thinking that he was going to hold things over my head forever........but that was just me.
I never moved out or S from my H during the A. Considering the experiences of some people such as you and Blu, it makes perfect sense that you need to hear an apology for individual offenses. When I first arrived on the board and would read how the wayward spouse should apologize as often as the betrayed spouse needed.........I thought, "Not this gal, honey!" But I thought they meant to keep apologizing for the same offense to which they had received forgiveness. Am I making sense? If you've really forgiven her, it was it for just one specific incident? I mean, if the WS sincerely apologizes from their heart, and the betrayed S forgives them.......but continues to confront the WS........IDK. I see what you all are saying. There is a lot of hurt that has not healed and you need to talk it out and hear a humble apology for it. I just don't know if the average WS gets it. Look how long I've been here reading this stuff..........and I'm pretty average......or I thought I was until now.
When I read Blu's explanation on your thread.........I thought to myself, "Oh, that's why they need to keep hearing apologies." Until then, I had just tried to accept it as part of the LBS's healing, but I had not heard anyone ever explain it this way. I thought LBS's meant that they needed to keep hearing the WS say, "I'm sorry I had an A". Like your W, I saw it as a lump offense that included deceit, lying, and the whole shoot'in match. That's why I think a couple coming back together needs a therapist who specializes in healing after an affair. ( I just lumped it together again, didn't I?) Hopefully, you know what kind of therapist I mean. There are so many things you suffered by your WS, that it must sound like a cop-out for them to think one apology cuts it. A therapist could approach or address these areas in a non-confrontational manner, and the WS would not take it the same as if directly from the betrayed S.........maybe.
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She has actually told me that her memory of that time is foggy.
You don't believe her? Do you think it is selective memory? This not just some type of defense tactic, it is true that some memory of that time gets a little foggy. The further it gets behind me, the less I can remember details, especially putting certain events in order or with the calendar. I suppose you would just have to evaluate how genuine she appears when she says it is foggy. I hope that is not painful to read.
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What I am encountering now is that I have a need for very specific apologies because my pain is VERY granular on an enormous scale. Her pain seems to be extremely broad, but overwhelming.
I don't want to come across as being insensitive to you, Blu, or any betrayed spouse. As a recovering WW, it appears that maybe you want your WS to heal your wounds. IDK that hearing an apology for every single cut is going to do the job. I see how it would help to see the sorrow on the face that caused that cut. I just don't think the WS is capable of doing your healing for you. S/he has their own healing to do. Who is going to do their healing? You? How are you going to do their healing? You can't. Neither can s/he do yours. I'm not saying s/he should not apologize, I'm just saying s/he has stuff to work through that you can't help with, and s/he can't handle it and your stuff too. See what I mean?
Yes, her pain seems to be extremely broad,,,,,,b/c it is. I've said it over & over that a LBS's pain and a WS's pain are not the same. How could it be? It is two entirely different experiences, with two separate mindsets. If the WS is or has genuinely gone through the inner process of changing their heart/mind.......and if they have suffered consequences of their actions, then they will have pain. But they have nobody to give them an apology. They are the guilty ones, and nobody knows it any better than they do. So, knowing no apologies will be coming for them, where or how do you suppose the WS finds healing? Forgiveness is a good starting place. Which goes back to bringing up single offenses, if she's thinking, "He said he forgave me, but he keeps bringing up stuff". (It's two different views of the overall forgiveness/apology issue.) You can see how it causes more pain for her, too. So, neither of you make fast progress when you are trying to work this out between yourselves without professional therapy. If it were my H saying what you have, my response would probably be, "Either you have completely forgiven me, or you haven't".
It depends on the personality, IMHO. As for my personality, (and I think I can be as humble about my wrong as anyone).......it doesn't mean I'm going to let someone just keep on & on bringing it up. While it is fresh...... or in therapy......... but not in our private lives. Perhaps someone will find that to be a character fault, just like they see having an affair as a character fault........but I'm trying to be as honest as I can about myself.
I dare say that one of the biggest problems for the WS recovery, is not having the proper information. I feel very fortunate that I received information before I totally destroyed my family and ruined my life beyond repair.
Joe, you did not heal after the D, and now you are feeling all this pain afresh. You could have been proactive in getting professional help, but you ignored it until she reached out to reconcile. What can she do to help you? Do you just want to hear her say, "I apologize"? Somehow, and I may be wrong.....I think you need more, and I'm concern you are resenting the fact that she doesn't feel the same type of pain.
I want to be clear and say that nobody is wrong here. It is two separate people who come from separate experiences and some have not received all the information or guidance to help them heal. Whether we are the LBS or the WS, we cannot expect the other spouse to automatically know what we need them to do, or to feel the same emotions. I think that is why Piecing is so hard. We don't see the responses or behavior patterns we need, and we get discouraged and frustrated b/c we want more.
P.S. Blu, I'm glad you did not say anything to your H about giving his input. Not for your sake, but for his.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!