Hoosjim's 16th. Looks like we're piecing, folks.

[burned]

This story reminds me of the fact that I maybe never had good enough boundaries with the women I worked with. My interactions with some of them, or maybe their interactions with me, could be construed as flirtatious. I never had any designs on any of them. But W worked with us for about 2 years and saw me interact with them. To me they’re like sisters, but W always felt jealous and I always said, relax, don’t worry about it. Strange that things started going south in our M right around the time she started actually being there to see me interact with them, no? And the first time I went on a weekend business trip with a few of them, W was super angry at me when I got back, even though I said, over and over, that none of that nonsense ever crossed my mind. But with the benefit of hindsight I can say with reasonable certainty that that weekend trip marks the beginning of the end of our M. May 2016. (I know I can’t trust anything she said after BD, but I remember on a couple of occasions, when I said I might leave and work somewhere else, she seemed mildly intrigued, fwiw.)

Ditch that scene. W can sense it, and that means there’s something, even if you don’t sense it in yourself. (Bo, if you’re reading this, you’re next on my list.) Either that or she is projecting her own stuff into you. Why did I trust my W and never cheat, while she was jealous and cheated, hmm? Projection! Anyway, no matter what, show her that you respect her and the MR more than you care about the watering hole. Plenty of other places to have a drink. Like, your bathtub, with W, bottle of wine, candles...

(Look at me, giving advice to my own mentor!)

[hoosjim]

First just let me say again: Thanks to everyone here! Y'all are truly a blessing. Dont know where i'd be right now if not for this site and the kind people here-on.

Sandi2:

Remember how you felt when your W would stay after work for wine in the doctor's office? Although she may not have been interested in the doctor, you still weren't comfortable with it......and didn't really trust the doc. And, you suspect the doctor still has a thing for your W.

Okay, so, while i really think everyone here is pretty spot on on the way i should approach this, i do have to take exception to this comparison. Bartender in my case is my server... at a very public establishment with lots of people around... and i have not been open in any way to any kind of intimate connection or sharing, even conversationally with this girl. Contrast this to the very private (as few as three people, on male doctor and two women) get togethers after hours, in a closed office space, with a close co-worker (and arguably a superior though not directly so) with drinking by both parties, and with a demonstrated willingness to share intimate details about one's personal/marital situation and struggles, and this by a woman WHO IS JUST COMING OFF OF AN EXTRAMARITAL AFFAIR! The two situations are on completely different levels with significantly different levels of opportunity/risk for something to happen or lines to be crowded/crossed (Reasonably high in the former compared to very low in the latter, imho).

Having said that, yes... you are correct that my wife's discomforture comes from the same place and much the same dynamic as mine did with her actions and, yes, I remember vividly how i felt about all that and yes, there is potential there for there to be some kind of bonding/trust develop, i suppose, with this bartender in that setting/scenario, But lets not pretend the two are anywhere near the same level of danger or offensiveness.

But the bartender has designs on you!

And this, i am far from certain of. Aside from my wife's observations, it stems only from that one evening and what she said/implied... and if that is what she was intending she was very subtle about it.. it was pretty far from "you want to stay after and have a drink with me" or anything of that nature. More like, if anything, a door opened a crack for me to make an approach if i wanted. Maybe not even that. More i think about it more i think i just have a heightened sense of awareness about that sort of thing after what W and i went through (something else i told W that night.) On some level almost wish i hadn't told W because it very well could have been nothing, bartender seems in all respects to be a nice girl, and i'd hate to have W thinking less of her because i misinterpreted something.

Again, having said all that, yes, my first responsibility/loyalty is to my W, MR and family... so that should be my first consideration.

ovrrnbw:

I think if you keep going to that bar you're asking for trouble. But hey I'm glad you got to feel the positive attention from this young gal, that's gotta feel good.

Yes, this is true. I have to admit both the "vibe" i got from bartender that night, as well as when W intimates she thinks bartender has eyes for me, does stoke my ego on some level. How can it not? (I also think it's good on some level for my W...as well as for any spouse for that matter... to think/know that their spouse is desirable to members of the opposite sex). Which brings up an important point ive made before and would like to reiterate for anyone still going through "the stuff" right now in their own MR: Be VERY careful about what you do and about how you respond to members of the opposite sex, particularly when you are out and particularly where alcohol is involved. If you have been in a cold or loveless or strained MR for a while, when you first receive attention from a member of the opposite sex in can be INTOXICATING. At one point during W's affair i remember being out with my buddy and i had kind of reached an "Eff this, im going to be me and let loose and enjoy myself" point, so idid just that... socialized, talked to people, including women, laughed, joked, flirted a little... and a couple, particularly one (another fairly young woman) responded...and it became very clear she was interested. My head swam. It's a good thing a) i had not had too much to drink b) was with a good friend who helped reel me back in and most importantly c) had a good grounding in my faith by that point which served as a bedrock foundation i never lost sight of, clung to, and pulled myself back from that. But it taught me a few things-- most importantly gave me some insight into how my W must be feeling and how she could have fallen into waywardness in response to the blandishments of OM, and secondly gave me a sense of of the importance of line drawing and being cognizant of where you were and what you wanted, and thirdly that you need to stay aware of the OTHER person in the equation-- they have feelings to. Wouldn't want to lead somebody on.

Yail:

Also, unless the bartender is an owner - bartending tends to be a profession with high turnover. So who knows, perhaps this bartender will be gone in 3 months to the next adventure. You may have your bar back in the future.

Yes, this is undoubtedly true. Good point. Although she has already been there 4 years at this point. Even so, she is also a doctoral student at a local university (my W's alma mater, go figure) and nearing the end of her degree so presumably she will soon be moving on to "better" things (though bartenders around here tend to do pretty well). Ironically, though, she will be working in the same field as my W works in and that community is somewhat insular around here-- would not at all surprise me to run into her again at some point. In fact, we found out at one point that one of her professors-- her academic advisor actually, works very closely with one of the doctor's in my W's practice, and, of course, the founder of the practice where my W works is a major benefactor of the program at this university where bartender is studying and a big name in the community/field. Same doctor whose daughter i attended college and was friends with well before i met/knew my W... who was also friends with her and worked at the clinic. Alot of weird connections all around... but that seems to be the state of my life. Everything's connected, and its all meaningful. That's the one thing i do wonder about here... with everything else that's happened, cant help but think that this person (bartender) crossed my path for a reason (or vice versa). Maybe to test me? Maybe just so my W could see another woman show interest in me? who knows. But all the connections like that always make me sit up and take note-- like the ones with my one long lost friend and my church he introduced me to and my other REALLY long lost friend who ended up being a counselor and turning up just at the right time for us with a friend/associate counselor who espoused some of same philsophies we heard from this church... all turning up at the same time... just in time to help us. Connections.

burned:

Anyway, no matter what, show her that you respect her and the MR more than you care about the watering hole. Plenty of other places to have a drink. Like, your bathtub, with W, bottle of wine, candles...

Burned! Listen to you, brother! (And you sly dog.) You're going to make some lucky lady a fine catch one day... Good advice, been making it a point to "date" my wife, but a cozy romantic evening at home like that might be a cool change of pace. She does like baths....

At any rate-- point well taken by all and it is the advice i expected. need to respect/honor my W and my MR. Sure gonna miss that place, though. Was really a refuge for me during my difficult days.

thanks All!!!

[SteveLW]

Do i need to stop going? At least when W is not with me? I asked W this once and she said "no, it's fine", but... IDK. Let me repeat: I have no designs here and, due to our own experiences, i am well aware of where the lines are and plan to stay well back of them.

What say ye all?

So let's switch this around. Your W frequents a watering hole. The bartender is an attractive young man that seems interested in your W.

Do you let her go back?

P.S. I was late to this party......but glad to see you are making the right decision.

[burned]

Okay, so, while i really think everyone here is pretty spot on on the way i should approach this, i do have to take exception to this comparison.

Why, because you're special and somehow your W isn't the same as all the other women on the face of the earth? :P

But lets not pretend the two are anywhere near the same level of danger or offensiveness.

Offensiveness, no. But that's in the past. Danger, yes. Small leaks sink ships.

[hoosjim]

So let's switch this around. Your W frequents a watering hole. The bartender is an attractive young man that seems interested in your W.

Do you let her go back?

This is actually an interesting question/issue, first because we have some precedent in our case for this if you look back through my thread, an second because i think (and this is always a point of confusion for me-- maybe im just "weird") that my take on that may be a little different than the average man.

On the latter... I actually like it when other men notice and look at my W. She's a beautiful woman and I'm always kind of like "yup thats right, shes with me". Its' kind of, idunno, validating" Ego-stroking to me, in a way(?) because such a good looking woman would be with me. At any rate, I never got the whole "Hey! Are you looking at my woman?!?"-angry knucklehead response to guys looking at some other guys woman. Be flattered! IDK, like i said maybe im just weird. Now, of course, it is an entirely different matter if you actually come on to her or touch her. THEN you and i are going to have words, and likely alot more if you laid a hand on her. Maybe if you just compliment her or the like we're okay... depends on the compliment. But i absolutely have no problem with the idea that other men may be and probably are attracted to my W.

Now, rewind to the sitch a little over a year ago, where W and i had supposedly started reconciling, where she had thrown away burner phone and supposedly (and apparently) NC-ed with OM... but she was still struglling with boundaries and with commitment to me and MR. One of her dinner and drinks nights out with GFs she was at a bar (one of friends was her very toxic and bad influence BFF) and they start having a sexually frank conversation and then decide to include the bartender (an attractive younger man) to "get his opinion". (The discussion involved male preference for women's grooming habits in... ummm... certain areas). So, then, when they are closing out, this bartender slips my W his name and phone number. Now, my W told me all of this herself (no spying by me) as soon as she got back... and i was, of course, pissed off. Not because some guy found my W attractive, but that she had put herself in that position by having a sexually frank (intimate) discussion with another man... and then perhaps by not objecting right off the bat when he gave his number by saying she was married (she was not, at that time, wearing her rings.) My W did not THEN see the problem.. although she has come around since then and since our big reset this past Spring.

So, i guess the answer is... it depends(?)

Interestingly, W and i and my folks and our kids and a couple of friends had dinner at same establishment a few weeks back, and the same bartender was there (My W indicated as much when we walked in). He obviously remembered her by the way he looked at her when we came in... which didn't bother me 't'all. (And he didn't say word one to her or approach her, either, but did glance over a few times )

[sandi2]

Bartender in my case is my server... at a very public establishment with lots of people around... and i have not been open in any way to any kind of intimate connection or sharing, even conversationally with this girl. Contrast this to the very private (as few as three people, on male doctor and two women) get togethers after hours, in a closed office space, with a close co-worker (and arguably a superior though not directly so) with drinking by both parties, and with a demonstrated willingness to share intimate details about one's personal/marital situation and struggles, and this by a woman WHO IS JUST COMING OFF OF AN EXTRAMARITAL AFFAIR! The two situations are on completely different levels with significantly different levels of opportunity/risk for something to happen or lines to be crowded/crossed (Reasonably high in the former compared to very low in the latter, imho).

You missed my point, which was how it made you feel when she stayed for drinks.

No matter how much logic you might apply to your situation with the bartender, what matters is how it makes your W feel.

[hoosjim]

You missed my point, which was how it made you feel when she stayed for drinks.

No matter how much logic you might apply to your situation with the bartender, what matters is how it makes your W feel.

Oh, no, just to clarify, i did get that, and, as i said above, i do understand how that feels.

And its important in our case because i know in the distant past... and even sometimes now... she suffers from confidence issues and has worried about me and other women (even though there was never anything to worry about.) That's something she had actually discussed with IC/MC-- her own feelings of inadequacy and lack of confidence in her and in our relationship. At least some of that has been remedied but still work to do for us, as always. Part of that is commnication and part of it, as you and others rightfully point out in this case, is respect and putting one's mate first and making sure they know they are being put first.

I totally get what you are saying. But the thing with the doctor and, yes, the affair even though it is further in the rear view mirror is still a sore point with me. I don't like things i am doing being compared to that. I know that's not what you were doing, you were comparing our respective feelings. But... like i said.. sore/sensitive point with me. I need to get over that.

[Ginger1]

Yup, it doesn't matter if the details are different or the same, it's how it makes your W feels, not what is more likely to be the outcome of it.

And let's be real, even though you take pride in another man finding your W attractive, I am sure taking a real interest in her is not fine with you. Her going back alone and conversing and joking with this man when you aren't there while he sends out the vibe that he is interested? You would be FAR from ok with that and wouldn't want her to go back.

No need to throw the logics and semantics around it. A bartender is interested in you, your W is uncomfortable with it, you simply stop going and find a new hang out. Ask your buddies you to meet you there.

You've come so far, it would be foolish to throw it away over a bar.

[SteveLW]

Interestingly, W and i and my folks and our kids and a couple of friends had dinner at same establishment a few weeks back, and the same bartender was there (My W indicated as much when we walked in). He obviously remembered her by the way he looked at her when we came in... which didn't bother me 't'all. (And he didn't say word one to her or approach her, either, but did glance over a few times )

You are a better man than I am. I would have told my folkd and kids and friends that if we couldn't find a different establishment then my W and I wouldn't be attending the dinner.

[sandi2]

Hi, I'm a day late, but wanted to wish you a Merry Christmas.