My default position is obviously "Hell No." It was "Hell no" when W begged me to come back and i established the ground rules for me doing so, and we have not directly addressed the question since except for one MC session where we discussed it briefly and i think i said something like "I don't see how you could think that that would be anything other than really awkward, at best, and extremely hurtful at worst", though i did allow that if W was going to continue friendship with her bff (and i have no control over who her friends are-- she's a big girl and needs to make those decisions on her own, though granted i will let her know how i feel) that we were going to have to figure out "what that looked like" and how we would reconcile that with our own newfound and healing relationship.
My feelings on that vis-a-vis these two other individuals (both who betrayed my best friend and one who helped lead my wife astray) has not changed. I have "forgiven" them in the Christian sense and they have no more hold on my life. But neither do i have any desire whatsoever to socialize with nor to pretend that i approve of their lifestyle or what they did. Opinions in my "circle" regarding our frat brother and former friend range from cautiously cordial to tolerant to "he ought to have his guts stomped out." He has wisely not shown his face around any of our gatherings since all of this went down, though a couple of my friends (luckily(?) a couple of the more tolerant ones) have run into them and been gracious and cordial.
My feelings WRT my W have obviously changed over the past few months. I now believe she is "all in" on our marriage, and, while i still bear an amount of pain over the ordeal, i trust her. I also want our relationship to continue to grow, an i don't want the past to be an impediment to that. Not to "forget" it, mind you, because i think we should always remember, but to get past it. W seems to think this is part of "getting past it." IDK... it's somewhat puzzling/frustrating. In every way except this one (wanting to see her bff and keeping that person in her life) she has moved past her wayward lifestyle and put it behind her and has shown no signs of being at all interested in going back. Granted that her friendship with bff predates by a looooong period of time the wayward period they shared, but, still.
Part of me is whispering i should give this one shot. As more people "forgive" these two, and as my friend's relationship with our former friend's now ex-wife (they swapped spouses-- and both of the jilted parties "traded up", WAY up, IMO) becomes more established and happy, it is increasingly likely that i will encounter these two socially at some point anyway. I have already had brief encounters with W's bff when W 1) went to dinner with her and 2) wanted to stop to drop off some of her belongings over the past couple of months, and we have been civil to each other (her actually more than civil-- very nice, chatty, but whatever) but none with her AP-- and he's the real sticking point. He was always a fun enough guy to hang with, but i never really liked him that much, and certainly never "trusted" him as i do all of my close friends.
Ugh. Really hoped she would distance herself more when bff moved out of state. Damn the internet age.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
IMHO is more about honouring your friend than trusting your W. My 5 cents...
Yes. Thanks. You said in 14 words what it basically took me three full paragraphs to say. But. Yeah. It's a matter of principle.
And, fwiw, my buddy has said "I got no problems with you hanging out with them if it comes to that", but, to me, that's not good enough. He still talks about that dude in derogatory terms, and still tells me how painful the situation still is to him at times. I dont think i could ever in good conscience get to the point of socializing with those two (W's bff and her AP) unless and until my own friend appeared completely good and at peace with them himself and, probably, willing and able to socialize with them himself. So, basically probably never.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
I'd have fought the guy right then and there if I was your friend. If I was you and the guy tried insulting my friend I'd have beat him. I've always stood up harder for my friends than myself and I can't stand people like the OM on your friend's sitch.
How could you break bread with someone like that? After all that's happened in both situations? No "stinkin" way.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
I'd have fought the guy right then and there if I was your friend. If I was you and the guy tried insulting my friend I'd have beat him. I've always stood up harder for my friends than myself and I can't stand people like the OM on your friend's sitch.
My friend, coincident with his marital ordeal, got religion. Born-again. And, like, for real. He lives every single component of it, including turning the other cheek. He told me part of him really wanted to clock the guy (which would have been a bad move-- other guy is total bada$$ who actually saved my friend's life one time by single-handedly fighting off a group of four gangbangers who were beating my friend), but he restrained, found forgiveness in his heart, etc.
Now, I am a man of strong faith, myself, but that is one area where i could not be so pious/restrained. It may not be strictly "right", but i will fight for my own. Probably an area where my faith needs more work. In my own case, I almost came to blows with OM, and he was actually trying to avoid me, not taunting me.
Yeah, i just don't see how it could happen absent total reconcilliation between my friend and this other dude and his XW. And even then it would be weird/awkward.
Ah, well, maybe it is the last little bastion of waywardness with my W, and the hardest to let go of because of her longstanding relationship with her friend. But maybe this too will pass, eventually. It probably already would have prior to the internet age with her being 1000 miles away.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Sorry i havent been much of a presence around here lately. With the holidays, and trying to give first priority to my MR, hasnt been a lot of opportunity to "sneak off" and provide insight and support over here. Hopefully i'll get more of a chance after the new year starts... thinking that that may be my lunchtime pastime a couple of times per week to "give something back."
Anyway, things going well for me and my W... she continues to exhibit more and more genuine devotion to both me and the MR, and her change has been remarkable. I regularly hear from her now "thank you for forgiving me, thank you for putting up with me... i am so glad you came back to me, etc etc." She does things for me now she almost never did (and, well, we actually do for each other.) She'll make me special meals, just for me, even when she's on a diet or cant eat them (and i do likewise for her, but its just a neat thing we never did before and she started it), texts me flirty messages constantly, always wanting to cuddle up with me.
I can truly say for those LBH's out there with WWs, it is so, so SO important to see ACTIONS from your WW, not just words. I heard so many empty words during my ordeal, but until you start seeing concrete change and concrete actions, you just can't trust them. Insist on concrete changes... Insist on being LOVED... you deserve it. (But be prepared to give it back as good as you receive...she'll deserve it too if she is truly "back".)
Couple of "notes" specific to my sitch for those following:
1) The doctor at her workplace who i think (and still think) had/has a thing for her: First thing to note goes under "concrete changes": she never stays or even asks to stay after with doctor and other girl for after work wine-downs. Just has no desire to. And she has been asked. Second, is that we went to her office party (held at same doctor's house) last week, and he is clearly, idunno if "hostile" is the right word, but i definitely not getting the friendly vibe from him at all now. Last Christmas when we went, when my W was still struggling with waywardness, still attending these after work gatherings, he was all friendly with us, talking with us often and coming around to where we were at party. Encourageing us to stay til end (we were last to leave). This year, avoided us like we had hair suits. Barely spoke to me OR my W even when we approached upon arriving and thanking when leaving. Definitely drew a few sidelong glances from him,especially when had arm around wife or holding her hand. HIS wife on the other hand was just as friendly with us as always. Now this next is going to make me look guilty of mindreading but... i dont care... I get "vibes" alot about people and they are way more often right than wrong. Definitely got the hostile/ticked off vibe from doctor, and also got a weird vibe from his W... like she was very solicitious of me and pulling me aside during office members raffle drawing ("We're not part of this, come over here and have a drink)... maybe trying to make doc jealous because she knew or suspected he had a thing for my W(?) IDK.. Anyway, we left early at my wife's request and went and met some other friends at a karaoke bar and had a blast. I definitely think the doctor, to the extent he ever had a chance, now knows he is officially out of luck WRT my wife.
2) A little something on my end and y'all can chime in with advice. While going through "the crap" last year-plus, i cultivated a local pub as my regular hang out. Met alot of really great people there, including the owner and many of the waitstaff and bartenders, and really made myself at home. Even drew in some of my regular crew who now also go there (it has become our go-to venue for sporting event watching.) So, the issue: There is a lady bartender there... very good looking, and also very young, like much younger than me (Im 52, she is 28 or 29 i believe). I am "friendly" with her, but not in any way intimate. She's one of the primary 2 or 3 bartenders there so is usually there when i go. She is an excellent bartender and also a real sweetheart... just very nice, chatty, etc. Problem is, my W thinks she is either trolling for me or at least has an interest. Has made comments on several occasions like "you know when i am sitting her with you she virtually ignores us and never talks to me" or "Ive looked right at her 4 times and gotten no acknowledgment." Now, i suppose some of this could be true.. IDK because i am not my W trying to catch bartender's eye. I will say that this bartender is prolly fair to say she gives me less attention when my W is there... but, then again, when my W is there i am usually facing my W and/or with my arm around her obviously focused on and talking with her, so i would expect any bartender to give me a little more privacy. IDK. So, anyway, my W had mentioned it frequently and i had been thinking about and then about two weeks ago, when i am there by myself (my usual thursday buddy had already left) and finishing up, this bartender asks me, in some way "are you going to be sticking around for a while? Im going to be working for at prolly another hour or so." (Or something like that. I dont remember the exact words, but my vibe alert went off and i got the distinct impression from the way she worded it that i was being invited to stick around until she got off-- We had been talking and joking around alot that night, and i had been having a very good time talking to some new folks at the bar and bartender kept stopping by to chime in and smile and joke or the like-- much more interaction than even on a normal night, i would say.) OTOH, could've been nothing... but i do know this: Had i been single and "interested", it is definitely something i would have "followed up" on. So, maybe something, maybe nothing. AAR, i shared it with my W when i got home, in the spirit of honesty. Nothing else said about it until last week when i went to meet friends there for a game and w says "going to see your GF?" and she said it in a joking way but... im not sure she thought it was so funny. She also apologized when she saw the look on my face and said "go, have fun with your friends." Then, last Thursday, i go after work, as i almost always do, and bartender is of course there. W meets me after a bit, and then, when we leave after a drink and light meal, valet has lost my keys! W has errand to run a few blocks away, so she says "you stay here and look and if you dont' find them ill come back and get you." So, we don't find them, i end up back in bar talking to manager, text W she should come back to bar to get me when done. Bartender offers me drink on the house for my trouble. "Sure" I say. So we end up talking for a bit while i finish my drink (place has thinned out some), then W texts "Im at light about a block away, you ready?" "Sure" i text back, be back in a minute. So, go back to finish drink, and bartender asks "So what do you think happened with your keys?" So, i relay the whole incident with her, and as im doing so she leans way out across the bar onto her elbows (i assume, so she can hear me better), then she laughs as i finish the story, i ask her what my tab is she says "on the house, remember?" and laughs again. So i say thanks, put down a 5 as a tip, say goodbye and she says see ya later and out i go. So, W had gotten there very quickly after text and was sitting just outside front of bar in car and saw final exchange and definitely took exception to bartender's body language and proximity (even though separated from me by bar). I said "hey, are you mad?" (genuinely surprised) and she says "Should i be?" To which i respond "Sweetness, anger's a choice, i can't tell you whether you should or shouldn't be angry. I can tell you one thing you shouldn't do, though." "Whats that?" she asks. "Worry,.." I say... "You know where my heart is." Which seems to pacify her, though she is a bit standoffish for first few minutes of car ride and warms up later. Everything since has been good to great. Question is... How do i handle this? I am fully committed to my MR, and, while this bartender is a very attractive woman, i have no interest in having any kind of affair or other intimate relationship with her. While there were a couple of times while my W was enthralled in her WW-ness a few months back where i suppose it's possible i engaged in only the most generic and light (dare i say harmless) sort of "flirting with your bartender/waitress" type of flirtiness, i have done nothing of the sort since W and i started reconciling 9 months ago, and at no time at any time have i ever crossed or come close to crossing this line with bartender-- no secrets shared, no intimate life details discussed, no discussion of my marital relationship (or the previous problems) with my W. I wear my ring, am openly affectionate with and devoted to my W while there, but.... Do i need to stop going? At least when W is not with me? I asked W this once and she said "no, it's fine", but... IDK. Let me repeat: I have no designs here and, due to our own experiences, i am well aware of where the lines are and plan to stay well back of them.
What say ye all?
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Do i need to stop going? At least when W is not with me? I asked W this once and she said "no, it's fine", but... IDK. Let me repeat: I have no designs here and, due to our own experiences, i am well aware of where the lines are and plan to stay well back of them.
But the bartender has designs on you!
Remember how you felt when your W would stay after work for wine in the doctor's office? Although she may not have been interested in the doctor, you still weren't comfortable with it......and didn't really trust the doc. And, you suspect the doctor still has a thing for your W.
Women can read other women. Don't ask your W if you need to stop going to the bar! W's aren't good at sharing their honest feelings about those type of jealousy questions......b/c they don't want to be seen as petty or jealous. Therefore, even though your W is clearly......very clearly...…..uncomfortable with the bartender's flirting, why in heaven's name would you continue going there??? It's the same scenario as the doc having designs on your W.
Show honor and sensitivity to your W by not going to that bar anymore. Seriously!
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
"you know when i am sitting her with you she virtually ignores us and never talks to me"
I had a bartender do that to me, except he is and was gay. It still pissed off my W, who was my gf at that time. Hilarious.
I think if you keep going to that bar you're asking for trouble. But hey I'm glad you got to feel the positive attention from this young gal, that's gotta feel good.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
I feel you. You found a place that was part of your GAL and you're connected to the location as a place that's special to you. But if you're noticing this bartender is acting kind of "on the edge" of appropriate than yes, your W is DEFINITELY noticing. (I think most of us are a bit thick when it comes to being flirted with. So if you see it, it's likely overt :))
I think the best thing is for now to work on finding a new hang-out. This is out of not just love for your W, but also respect. You respect that even though she didn't ask you to stop going, you understand she's uncomfortable. Perhaps on rare occasion you could visit that bar if W is with you. But only if she is accompanying you and is up for it.
What if you engage W in helping you to find a new hangout? Go test drive a bunch together, chat about the pros and cons of different watering holes. Perhaps you can find a new place that suits the two of you.
Also, unless the bartender is an owner - bartending tends to be a profession with high turnover. So who knows, perhaps this bartender will be gone in 3 months to the next adventure. You may have your bar back in the future.
In my own case, I almost came to blows with OM, and he was actually trying to avoid me, not taunting me.