A familiar story with questions EIGHT

[RR17]

First, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to read back through my many threads and for typing this twice. I really do appreciate it. I have read it several times and my intention is to respond in a way that is both thought out and grateful.

RR, I want you to know that I am not unsympathetic about your situation, and I am not giving intentional 2x4's. I am honored that you sought me out to ask questions. With that said, knowing how much work the WW has to do on herself and on the MR, I can't believe she is going to accidently slip into a honest reconciliation with her H. That's kind of comparable to accidently becoming a Christian, the way I see it. I feel you are trying to find a loophole for her, and convince yourself things are progressing forward. Don't confuse normalizing with progression.

Honestly Sandi, I don't see any 2X4s in your posts. Nothing to knock me over. Nothing upsetting. But thanks for showing the sensitivity. Many of your concerns have been concerns of mine over these many months. I have always been aware and have had buy-in to your list on what is required for proper reconciliation. It just made sense to me. I am convinced that that was why I was here and a BD#2. Those necessary steps or conditions had never been met the first go round.

As for a loophole? I am not trying to find any for her. I have asked here many times if R has to start with an event. Particularly remorse. It was suggested here that all situations are different, actions speak louder than words and it seemed like we were dipping our toes. I just knew I was in Limbo. Blurry messages. I have been open to the idea that we were entering R, but I really don't feel like I manufactured it. Point is, I don't need to be in reconciliation. What I desire is just honest communication. And I an idea of what I need to do.

What were several of the problems, and why didn't they get worked out?

Remember that this was 2013 and pre-DB #1. IMO, as stated, her problems were mostly communication. She was never vocal about her wants or need and what she didn't like. She built up animosity based on not having a voice. But I'm going to focus on my faults.

I got used to this dynamic and took advantage of it. I got beat up by the recession and lost my mojo and confidence. I felt that I was competing for Ws love and attention with my 2 Ds. I became an unagreeable grouch. I was put-out whenever anything was required from me. I went from being the center of this MR to the antagonist in a family. I'm sure there is more.

Why didn't they get worked out? Like many couples, once the W conceded in MC and NC, we slipped into a new normal without addressing mostly her problems. Communications etc. As for me? Well, like many Hs here, I was shocked into getting my act together. I remember Aug. 24th 2013 having an epiphany and seeing all this wrong I was guilty of and 180ing on much of it almost instantly. The change has lasted for the most part. W say this and agreed. Sometimes saying it was late.

Things were better but I believe that one thing I never figured out was how to make W feel like she was priority #1. Not in a bata way, but you get the picture. That and not having the tools here and requiring proper reconciliation.

Was OM a co-worker, in her social circles, or long distance? Did he encouraging the EA? Did she have supporters who were enabling her in the EA? Is she still friends with them?

OM was in the next state, an old flame from pre-RR17. W was looking and OM contacted her on social media. An interesting thing is they had a couple of failed attempts to unite. I believe that both sabotaged these events. Something about being attracted to unavailable people.
There was one supporter and she is out of the picture now. I have mentioned her in my threads.

I assume by your quote above that the two of you went to MC? Did she make the choice to stop attending? Could you tell if she went through a period of "withdrawals"?

Was the subject of a transparency plan discussed? If so, what was her attitude about it?

She did go through withdrawals. As mentioned I caught her in contact 2 more times. I believe this was part of the process. I wrote about finding a journal entry where admitting struggling with NC and how she didn't want to even think about OM again. At the time, I was struggling with my own healing and had no sypathy for these withdrawals.
Yes, there was a transparency plan. She agreed and then reneged on some. Now, she seems to take steps to demonstrate transparency.

When you came to the board, it was after she gave you a bomb drop of not being happy and wanting out of the MR. Overnight she apparently started being "nicer" to you. I read back through all your threads and your most common summation about her was that she was showing more respect and consideration. Can you be a little more specific?

Yes. It was years later and she BD she wanted an S. She accused me of only wanting her for sex and thought I might move out so she could decide if D was in the cards.
This is when I found this place and DR and instituted the LRT. I refused to move out and did some other manipulative things like pushing to go forward with a D and going dark. This along with DB techniques seemed to be the reason she was much nicer. The removal of any pressure factored in. Sandi2 I was a much different LBS the second time around. No more bata blubbering or attempts to convince etc.
The respect and consideration have continued and increased. I believe it is due to my work and the tools here.

I see some LBH's who try to implement the LRT or beyond the LRT for a few days, and eventually the lines become blurred to them and they are trying to show the WW what an improved H he can be. I say the lines become blurred, b/c he starts spending more time with her, has sex with her, and talks way too much to her. He kind of loses sight that the issues have not been worked through or resolved, there has been no obvious effort from the WW to do whatever is necessary to help bring her H's healing and to be able to trust her again, she has not humbly repented of her affair, etc. They seem to find some level of normalcy in their situation, and go on with life. That's what you did after couples counseling stopped, right?

Sort of. Remember MC was upon DB #1. I initiated MC because I was Fixing my MR.(sarcastic) W ended it because IMO it exposed too much of her faults She was still speaking to this creep and asI think I have heard you say, it should really be called Divorce Counseling. In IC I was in pain and I let it fly. So yes, after that things got artificially better, new normal until BD#2.
Upon BD #2 I went to IC but based on my newly discovered DB practices, I knew better than you try to force MC on W. She didn't want to go and all this counseling gets expense. On BD#1, we had both IC, MC and a D in IC every week.
Upon BD#2 I didn't spend more time with her. I spent less. I was GAL and reading here and had my testicles. The respect and consideration were different. I attribute this to this group and MWD's books and my application. My whole approach on BD#2 was a 180 from BD#1. I wasn't pursuing or trying to fix, I was moving away and I wasn't in distress.

I will say that during one of my monologues post DB#2,(yes I know I wasn't supposed to be having R talks, it was a slip) during my pontification W broke down and was sobbing like I had never seen during all this crap. I asked what was the reason and W said she felt so bad about what she had put me through during A. It seemed genuine. During that time I had a couple of panic attacks and I was a mess. At that time happened W was still involved it wasn't a priority of her's but now she seemed remorseful. Sandi, my nature is a tendency to see the problem and miss the benefits, so I processed this as remorse for the pain but not the A. I don't know what this means, but I tell you so you might better see that I'm not an overly rosy glasses kind of guy. Being fooled scares me more than heading to divorce. I tell you these things knowing I may still be misreading. I tell you so that you might better understand and not to "sell" you on her changes.

For an unrepented WW, this type of scenario works okay for her, but not for the MR. She still gets the benefit from living under the same roof with her H, but is not required to make amends. If she's being nice and considerate, it's b/c she has friend-zoned him. Bing friend-zoned does not work favorably for the MR, IMHO, when the WW has not told the H that her decision is to stay in the M. At best, they will continue to live like roommates. The resentment, hurt, mistrust, etc. will go unresolved. They simply try to create a new normal. After living in limbo for years, the H becomes more slack in his endeavors, b/c he's convinced himself they have slid over into reconciliation without her realizing it, or doing the work. I don't think the WW accidently or rots her way into having a wonderful MR. I think many LBS's let their WS come back too easily.....and your story appears to be a prime example. She lost respect for you before the A, and she never got it back. That's why she doesn't want to sleep with you. The lack of admiration has killed the attraction. Without more information, I suspect she was guilted back from her A. As you say, they get better at covering up.

Yes, I have suspected this very scenario until I was repeatedly reminded that "actions speak louder than words" I hope other LBS read this and avoid this. I have suspected this is why the no intimacy. I wouldn't say I have become more slack, but have intentionally moved closer in an attempt to initiate intimacy, both sexual and none. I have felt like I am in the Friend-Zone for many months. We spend a lot of extra time together. I will say I have maintained a healthy autonomy that didn't ever exist before. I have encouraged her to do the same. During this year she has expanded a social circle that once consisted mostly of coworkers to Bible study and Tennis friends. I can see where this has taken a tremendous pressure off of me and the MR. We watch movies and she shares stories about her friends and I limit my stories. All in good DB fashion. One thing that has confused my thinking has been that W and I started out as friends 23 years ago. By my choice. So getting back this stage seems like a progress. I believe it in no way bypasses the need for proper R. Do I like this Friend-Zone? No, although it beats a contentious IHS, it leads to the Blurred Lines. I have prayed for months for a softening of W heart and signs of what I should be doing. From this group, I have been told to be patient and to embrace our time together.

As for what is currently in W's heart? I have no idea.
I suspect that she has been "willing" her way back. Much more after I started DBing. The increase in respect and consideration is consistent and increasing. Yes, sometimes she gets miffed at something but when she makes a decision regarding the Ds, she consults me. When we have a disagreement where she used to hold a nonverbal grudge for a couple days, she seems to move on much more quickly. She doesn't default to the idea that I am blaming her for stuff that goes wrong. I used to feel like when my feelings were taken into consideration it was out of pressure from me. Out of sight out of mind. It now seems to be intentional and none coerced. The real only fights since May have been when I tried to initiate sex and got shot down. Besides these rejections signaled that I was totally misreading the blurred signals (temp taking) they were the only times that she didn't handle something without regard to my feelings. Not because she shot me down but in the insensitivity in how she did it.

Do I think she is WW or WAW? I know that she was W upon BD#1, I suspect that she has been WAW since BD#2. I'm not sure because I don't know what is in her heart. I have focused on my stuff to change which I believed it really didn't matter because my part didn't change.

She wanted a separation and you gave her a H who is trying to win her back. It's not working, so you try this or that to get a certain desired result, and that doesn't work either. So, you try to convince yourself that she is nicer, considerate, and more respectful than you've seen in a decade. Whenever you make a comment about what she's doing, you repeat how she's nice, considerate, more respectful. However, you haven't explained how she's more respectful. You've also told how she will look sad after you've said something. FWIW, that doesn't mean she feels remorse. You may be hitting close to a nerve, or she may be manipulating the entire show. You have not described how things were before the EA, so we don't have a lot to compare now with then.

So, yeah, living under the same roof......and not even knowing if the status is IHS or not...….is very, very tough. I don't want to break your heart, RR, but unless you give me more specifics...….I don't think you are reconciling without her aware. ((hugs))

All righty, I'm nearing the final stretch. . Yes, I have tried this and that as instructed in the book. Hopefully, I have illustrated how she has been more respectful. If not, ask questions and I'll try harder. " You've also told how she will look sad after you've said something. FWIW, that doesn't mean she feels remorse. You may be hitting close to a nerve, or she may be manipulating the entire show." I have never seen her use this type of manipulation before.
I don't believe that I have convinced myself regarding respect and consideration. The changes are irrefutable.
What is behind them is still up for debate.
Honestly, if I am not in reconciliation, I'm okay with that. I really am.

So, my big question, if I am not in reconciliation and W is willing herself to be a good girl and we don't know where she is in terms of regaining feelings, but know that she doesn't have the respectful attraction to want to be intimate, What do I do with this info?

Do I sit and be patient, do I start putting my foot down regarding future expectations, or is there something completely different that I should explore?

Thank you so much for taking the time!