MLC, WAS, or both

[Yail]

I need advice!

W is coming home this weekend to get more stuff. Reminder on our sitch: She went from 0 to 60 in the past 7 months (completely loving & just got married to D) with what I believe to be a MLC (also WW) and has taken a job out of state. She has been living there part time for maybe 12 weeks, but fulltime for about 6 weeks. Communication is non-existant unless critical, and is polite and distant between both of us. Every time we communicate there is more distance despite nothing "happening" between us to warrent the change in dynamic. She asked for a D last week. It is incredibly fast, and in my mind there was nothing in our R to warrent a D. I do not recognize this person or how we got to a D SO FAST without any work on the R. So my head has been spinning with trying to catch-up.

When I saw W last week she said she would write to me about plans this weekend so that I would know when to expect her at the house since it is now my space. Here's what I received this AM:

"Hi. I will be back in (state) this weekend. I decided to stay at my folks house for the night. I will be stopping at the house for some stuff. I am wondering if I can have some time alone to do that. I don't know what your plans are but I am thinking of coming by Sunday morning after I have breakfast with my parents. We are going to breakfast at 9am and should be done by 10:30 - so anytime from 10:30 until around noon? Is that possible? I will only need about an hour or so to do this. Let me know when you can. Thanks (name)"

So clearly she is not wanting to see me. One (mindreading) thought is that she will be seeing OW and does not want to come back to the house after. But it's the not wanting to see me Sunday I don't understand. I guess it's just about guilt? I don't want to escalate things, and it's not like I WANT to watch her pack up things. Does she just think I will silently slide into a quiet D without ever seeing her again? This is the point where I am fighting myself to remember that she doesn't get to call all the shots.

I just...don't know what to say to her. At this point in time I don't understand where her WW mind is at. I believe she is experiencing deep guilt (and possibly advancing her R with OW), but not in a way that will push her to R at this point in time. I feel she is pushing herself forward out of sheer will, but experiencing doubt. Affair fog, MLC fog, who knows.

Please - advice!!

[burned]

At this point in time I don't understand where her WW mind is at. I believe she is experiencing deep guilt (and possibly advancing her R with OW), but not in a way that will push her to R at this point in time. I feel she is pushing herself forward out of sheer will, but experiencing doubt. Affair fog, MLC fog, who knows.

First of all, don't try to understand where her mind is at. That's a cheesiness tunnel and it will drive you crazy. The bolded part is the other thing. NO EXPECTATIONS.

Does she just think I will silently slide into a quiet D without ever seeing her again?

Probably. WW mind. More importantly, she EXPECTS you to sit there silently AND be super sad about it, and compliant. OK, well, show her that you're not sad about it. You don't make it difficult for her, you don't stand in her way, but you act like it's totally fine and really she's doing you a favor and have a nice life without me, etc. Then she goes...uh...what?

[Yail]

You don't make it difficult for her, you don't stand in her way, but you act like it's totally fine and really she's doing you a favor and have a nice life without me, etc. Then she goes...uh...what?

So, I let her do this?

Draft: "My plans are not yet confirmed, so I'm not positive exactly what times I will be in or out of the house. In addition to the items you've staged downstairs are there other items I should expect you'll be taking?"

Is this avoiding her direct question/request without addressing it? I don't want to be avoidant. My 180 needs to be not tiptoeing around her.

This woman is so foreign. Zero to 60 in this MLC. I do. not. understand.

[burned]

So, I let her do this?

Draft: "My plans are not yet confirmed, so I'm not positive exactly what times I will be in or out of the house. In addition to the items you've staged downstairs are there other items I should expect you'll be taking?"

My understanding of the DB wisdom is that you should consider YOUR expectations as you choose how to respond. Are you saying that because you expect her to see you differently based on how you respond, and then have a magical unicorn change of heart and take you back? Then don't do it that way. Are you saying what you feel like saying because you honestly don't feel like being bothered to leave the house? Then that's better.

The way you phrased it sounds very businesslike, and therefore perhaps inauthentic. Lately my W has been talking to me like that and it makes me think a) she's struggling, and b) maybe someone's coaching her. So try to make it match with your usual style.

"Thanks for the heads up. Not sure what I have going on that day but I'll see what I can do. Hey, are there things you're taking that aren't in the staging area?" Just an example. The less you say, the better. The more "you" it sounds, the better. Remember, you're fine with this and you're not standing in her way.

[Yail]

So, I let her do this?

Draft: "My plans are not yet confirmed, so I'm not positive exactly what times I will be in or out of the house. In addition to the items you've staged downstairs are there other items I should expect you'll be taking?"

My understanding of the DB wisdom is that you should consider YOUR expectations as you choose how to respond. Are you saying that because you expect her to see you differently based on how you respond, and then have a magical unicorn change of heart and take you back? Then don't do it that way. Are you saying what you feel like saying because you honestly don't feel like being bothered to leave the house? Then that's better.

The way you phrased it sounds very businesslike, and therefore perhaps inauthentic. Lately my W has been talking to me like that and it makes me think a) she's struggling, and b) maybe someone's coaching her. So try to make it match with your usual style.

"Thanks for the heads up. Not sure what I have going on that day but I'll see what I can do. Hey, are there things you're taking that aren't in the staging area?" Just an example. The less you say, the better. The more "you" it sounds, the better. Remember, you're fine with this and you're not standing in her way.

I guess I wrote what I wrote because I A) really DON'T know my plans for Sunday and I'm annoyed that I need to commit now just for her comfort of not seeing me and B) Perhaps a little bit of her seeing me in a different light. Not a strong signal, but a "hey, I'm not going to just do whatever you like for your convenience.This isn't going to be smooth perfect sailing for you if that's what you expect. My needs will need to be met too in this process, and you will need to interact with me" type signal.

The business like is perhaps a bit more authentic than you'd guess. I'm verbose here, but I'm not sure W would see my note as out of the ordinary.

New Draft: "Thank you for the heads up. My plans are not yet confirmed, so I'm not positive exactly what times I will be in or out of the house. If I do find that I'm at the house when you are there I can give you privacy. In addition to the items you've staged downstairs are there other items that I should expect you'll be taking?"

[burned]

New Draft: "Thank you for the heads up. My plans are not yet confirmed, so I'm not positive exactly what times I will be in or out of the house. If I do find that I'm at the house when you are there I can give you privacy. In addition to the items you've staged downstairs are there other items that I should expect you'll be taking?"

Getting there. You're being honest with her and yourself (your plans aren't confirmed). You're being flexible (willing to give her privacy, the likeliest outcome I'm guessing), and you're showing that you have your own concerns that you'd like her to address (knowing what she plans to take).

If you're doing it because it's what YOU want, then you're good to go. If you feel annoyed because YOU don't feel like having to change your plans to suit her schedule, then you're on the right track.

[Yail]

I feel like once I read something from Steve85 that said he did intentionally make a point known to his W that her request for D would not be so simple. Not in an antagonizing way, but in a "you need to be realistic about this, I am a person. you are Ding a person you need to communicate with" type of way. I don't recall exactly where I read this, but the action was subtle. It sounds like I'm trying to manipulate, but I guess that's what is on my mind. She is not in charge here, despite our history of that being the case.

I do know that I'm trying to read the future. I'm trying to stop. But I'm so convinced that this MLC will pass and she will wake up and think "WTF did I do, I tried to run away from my problems". I know to have no expectations, but I'm just so aware how firmly in denial I am. I feel like I know I'm "right" in all of this and that she's "wrong". I feel like I still know her, but that is not true. I realize this is not a path to growth or acceptance.

I think part of my struggle is most folks here are having temp checks and back and forth so you can see the spouse's path of retreat. You can see the pursuit dance. I don't understand W's path of retreat. It was all of a sudden and then it was 100%. I don't wish to have an IHS as they sound horrible, but not seeing W leaves me just completely in the dark. I definitely feel abandoned.

In some ways, this way may be "easier". We don't have kids. Our finances have always been separate. We don't have the IHS, so I don't have to see her. But WTF, STBXW. What happened?

[burned]

I feel like once I read something from Steve85 that said he did intentionally make a point known to his W that her request for D would not be so simple.

Steve knows what he's doing, so it's worth considering. I don't know that you have the same relationship with your W as he has with his, though. So it could backfire.

I'm so convinced that this MLC will pass and she will wake up and think "WTF did I do, I tried to run away from my problems".

AnotherStander says that many if not most of them DO get to that point as some point. Just be careful with the MLC approach, I don't think that's what you're dealing with. Stick with the WW wisdom.

I think part of my struggle is most folks here are having temp checks and back and forth so you can see the spouse's path of retreat.

I had that same concern. Keep an eye out for what could be a temp check disguised as something simple. And anyway, when I mentioned that a few weeks ago, the response (also from AnotherStander) was: don't worry about it, some of them just show no interest for a while (a year or more), until they suddenly do.

[Yail]

I feel like once I read something from Steve85 that said he did intentionally make a point known to his W that her request for D would not be so simple.

Steve knows what he's doing, so it's worth considering. I don't know that you have the same relationship with your W as he has with his, though. So it could backfire.

I guess I feel W needs to see I won't roll over and play dead. I'm not looking to actively stand in her way, and I respect her decisions, but I WILL stand up for myself. This is something that was lost in myself the past few years. It's a bit of a 180. It does represent who I was when W and I first met. I have become someone with NGS, and it's not "me". So in a way, it doesn't matter my relationship with W. It ultimately is for me to stand tall and just say a calm, "no". Re-learning how to do this with someone is hard when you have come into bad habits in your relationship.

I'm so convinced that this MLC will pass and she will wake up and think "WTF did I do, I tried to run away from my problems".

AnotherStander says that many if not most of them DO get to that point as some point. Just be careful with the MLC approach, I don't think that's what you're dealing with. Stick with the WW wisdom.

I'm not sure that DB changes for MLC vs WW? I believe to have a MLC that turned into WW, which is not uncommon. An A during MLC happens most of the time from what I understand. Both my mom and I (who was close friend with W) both saw W's depression deepen over the past two years. I do think it was the early stages of MLC, and it was her friends death that "triggered" the Replay stage. But just from my guessing - I know focusing on the stages doesn't really do anything. It only helps me in knowing that I am not 100% to blame here.

[Yail]

New thoughts after a day of feeling sad.

Burned got me thinking if W is MLC or WW. Not sure that it matters, but I'm still pretty sure she's a hybrid. There were some very specific external triggers that lined up with her behavior, that for privacy I do choose not to display here. I did certainly have an impact, I'm not saying I didn't. I was not the partner she needed, so she felt like all responsibility was on her. I've outlined this in past posts, so I won't re-hash our dynamic and the very clear areas I am focusing my growth.

I guess the only reason I wonder if MLC vs only WW matters is in assessing W's own guilt and grief. My past few interactions her personality has just been so....terribly sad. Deep, deep despair. And huge guilt. This has come out in an almost meek politeness. I do think she sort of knows that I am not to blame in all of this, but maybe she feels she isn't either. That it just needs to happen. Today I spent some time reading the experiences of folks who went through MLC and how it seems there is no choice but to run, and the guilt and pain is extraordinary. And perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like someone in MLC is even more sensitive to pursuit because they feel chased not just by their partner but by themselves and their own demons.

I feel bad in "hoping" it is MLC because for my own selfish reasons I want something to blame. I want to say "this THING took over my W and I lost her to it". But of course, as I read it I would not wish this on anyone. It sounds like mental H---.

This line of thought has me rethinking my previous answer I may send to W regarding this weekend. If she needs the space and has asked humbly, perhaps I can give that to her. Let her grieve and feel pain on her own time without feeling watched or judged by me. Perhaps she assumes I'm in terrible pain on her saying she needs a D, and can't bare to see me - who knows. I hope my action is taken for what my intent is - respect. Respect for her process and her request at knowing what she would like and in asking for it kindly. In re-reading her note it is different in tone than she usually is, and certainly different than I expected from her. It is more hesitant. Not the confidence I know from her. And not the brusqueness I would expect if she was blaming me for all her troubles. So with that in mind, I will let her know that I will have plans, but if by chance something changes and I find myself at the house I will give her privacy. I will still ask her to identify what she is taking, as this has a logistical piece I need to be aware of.

I still welcome thoughts on this. Do others have a H or W in MLC? I'd welcome your input.