Dealing with a WW trying to save marriage pt2

[SoTorn]

What should the consequence be if she does this?

You decide. It's your life. In fact, the more you make your own decisions based on what matters to you, the better you look in the eyes of other people. It's a fact. So choose a consequence that is reasonable, fair, or anything else that is one of your values. Unfortunately we can't choose for you. But when you think of a boundary you should always approach it with the mindset of, "What do I need to do to protect myself?" So you also have to consider what you're protecting yourself from, and why. There's no easy answer. But if you're using the term "boundary" when what you mean is "ultimatum" then you're off target. You're looking for something YOU can DO to get HER to do what YOU want and that will ALWAYS backfire.

My recommendation, at least for now, is to just walk away. You don't like when she's on the phone with OM while you're there? Then don't be there. Protect yourself from the hurt/anger by just walking away. That's the point of GAL. Go do something else. Leave her alone. That's your best shot.

My stitch is unique in the fact that my wife has not always been a narcissist. My wife has stubborn pride. She has never tried to use me. She is the other way around, she feels people use her.

Said EVERY single LBH with a WW. Dude, I said that for like a month after I got here, and I used it as an excuse to not do what people here were telling me would work. Then I started reading my own threads again and it just went click. It's OK, we all get that thought sometimes. Throw it out. Your W is the same as all WWs, for the EXACT reasons you listed right there. Trust us.

Another thing that's hard to get across is that I honestly feel that I am not plan B. WW is running from her problems. If I went and filed, she would probably be happy.

Did you copy and paste this from one of my posts from like 2 months ago? No, you didn't. It's freaky how similar these WWs behave, and how similar we feel about them.

Its weird. She doesnt temp check me.

There's another thing I said. That's OK, she doesn't need to. You're giving her all the info she needs. She'll only start temp checking when you stop being predictable. So stop being predictable. And then ignore the temp checks. Another possibility is that she might not temp check you at all. So what? Doesn't matter. Do what you need to do and forget what her reaction will be.

WW acts like she is extremely shamed when she is around me.

Why? Think about it.

But again that stubborn pride gets in the way of her remorse. So she just feels shame and guilt.

Seems like a lot of us have WWs with stubborn pride, shame and guilt (we think), and no remorse. So accept that for what it is. The pride hides the shame and guilt. The remorse would open that all up and make it unbearable. That's how they cope with what they're doing. It doesn't stop them from doing it. If anything it makes it easier.

I read tons of other stitches where the WS is wayward and then once in a while shows a glimmer of hope, aka a temp check, and even talks positively about the future with the LBS. My WW does not do that. She is either completely withdrawn or even when she is around, in avoidance mode.

OK, we talked about temp checks. Don't feel bad that you aren't getting any. You're not getting any because she's in avoidance mode. Why is she in avoidance mode, hmm? You're in her face all the time. Leave her alone! Go do something else.

But this is where she expects me to be pleading and begging etc.

Nope. Mind reading. It doesn't matter what she expects. It's good that you aren't begging and pleading. But remember that pressure is the same as pursuit. Anything that makes her uncomfortable.

I read another stitch that ended in success where the LBS was kind, not pursuing, but used small loving touches etc. Like calming touches. I may try that sparingly to see if I can get WW to talk to me about feelings so I can listen.

NO. Don't do it. Study the WW threads to understand how these women think. It's a paradox, I know. But when you send someone the message that they can talk to OM on the phone, then lie to you that they aren't, and you're fine with it and want to touch her and be all friendly...it sends the message that you're weak, that you don't respect yourself, that you aren't a good "mate" because you won't protect her, not even from herself. It's confusing because at this point you SHOULDN'T be trying to protect her. That's pursuit. What you should be trying to protect is the image she has of you as a respectable man who doesn't tolerate crap from anyone, not even her.

She is stubborn as a mule and has zero common sense.

Said you and pretty much half of all the LBHs here.

I may try and take some video. The reason for that is that I want to show you all what's going on.

Don't bother, you can't post video here. Anyway, we know what it's like. Your W isn't too different from ours.

It seems that a lot of people here think I'm just walking around angry and pissed off and we are both walking around with our hair on fire.

Well, look, we can only judge you based on what you say. We don't know you. Several different people say you come across as angry, and I've been here long enough to know that they don't say that about just anybody. So there's something in the way you write that makes you seem angry. Of course that doesn't mean it's true. But what a GREAT opportunity to study yourself. How does your choice of words, your attitude, your general sense of reality, all that stuff, how does it affect how people see you? That could be a very useful lesson. How do you come across to others, and why? You won't be able to answer that yet but it would be a great thing to talk about with an IC.

So I just will not pursue her.

Good. That's step 1. There's plenty of work to be done. But step 1 makes the rest of the work possible.[/quote]

Honestly I write for a living. I write legal letters. Most of my writing is very factual and to the point. So it may come across angry. I can honestly say I'm angry.

I haven't been touching. We cut chatted when she talked to me. But I kept it brief. Again even though I'm home I have left her alone.

I have been friendly. That's about it.

[Maximus]

Hi Guys,

When you say that you understand your part in the breakdown or that you share the blame for the problems in the marriage have you really thought about what you did or did not do? Do you have examples with legitimate results where you can pinpoint?

In the event of the relationship ending and you starting a new one, do you know what you need to do or not to do differently to avoid the same results?

Do any of you know your spouse’s language of love?

Peace

Max

[BluWave]

Hi ST,

I've been here for awhile, but don't like to post unless I have read an entire thread. If I had more time in a day, I would reply more often to more people. I'm a W who had a WH return and have been piecing for several years now. I read all of your posts. Your responses are a bit maddening, so I had to weigh in! You have some of the best posters here in your corner, and they are giving you fantastic advice, and I read NO WHERE in your responses that you are 1. Actually listening to the advice, 2. Wanting to understand how they are correct and how you can start making small changes, and 3. Then discussing how you can implement said changes.

You mention that you are not angry, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that you are. I think you are spending more energy trying to convince us that you've got this down than trying to make adjustments that could really benefit you. When I read your posts I see that you are making a lot of assumptions about your W and mind reading. That needs to change for you to be successful. I also sense a holier than thou or possibly arrogant attitude. How can we help you unpack the feelings that may be leading to that thinking?

Amoafwl talks a lot about small goals and that they need to be measurable. Do you have a list of goals? You are working on your GAL and trying to create distance, while both living in the same house. That's hard to do, I'm sure! How can you slowly start to shift your thinking about her, stop the mind reading, and learn about validation techniques? It has been explained to you, but we would like to see you start implementing it.

There is another poster here named Orange. I can't bring myself to ever post to him. He has poepe here convinced his WW is mentally ill, a narcissist or what have you (she might be, but I doubt he or any of us can diagnose her), and he is easily defensive with posters. He spends more time telling us how she has issues and how he is DBing well than taking any advice and showing us how he is implementing the advice and making real progress. What I'm trying it say is, don't be like that guy, plain and simple. And remember, poeple here are only spending their time because they want to help others, truly. We have all been in your similar sitch in one way or another.

I actually see a lot of hope in your sitch. She is still there and it is still early. That being said, you have A LOT OF work to do, man. Personal growth. And that takes time and is hard to do. You need to strip off some of your armor, allow yourself to become vulnerable, and really, really listen to these wise people here. Can you do that? I challenge you to go back and read their words again. Think only about how they might be right and where you might be able to make some small changes in your thinking.

Blu

[SoTorn]

What should the consequence be if she does this?

You decide. It's your life. In fact, the more you make your own decisions based on what matters to you, the better you look in the eyes of other people. It's a fact. So choose a consequence that is reasonable, fair, or anything else that is one of your values. Unfortunately we can't choose for you. But when you think of a boundary you should always approach it with the mindset of, "What do I need to do to protect myself?" So you also have to consider what you're protecting yourself from, and why. There's no easy answer. But if you're using the term "boundary" when what you mean is "ultimatum" then you're off target. You're looking for something YOU can DO to get HER to do what YOU want and that will ALWAYS backfire.

My recommendation, at least for now, is to just walk away. You don't like when she's on the phone with OM while you're there? Then don't be there. Protect yourself from the hurt/anger by just walking away. That's the point of GAL. Go do something else. Leave her alone. That's your best shot.

My stitch is unique in the fact that my wife has not always been a narcissist. My wife has stubborn pride. She has never tried to use me. She is the other way around, she feels people use her.

Said EVERY single LBH with a WW. Dude, I said that for like a month after I got here, and I used it as an excuse to not do what people here were telling me would work. Then I started reading my own threads again and it just went click. It's OK, we all get that thought sometimes. Throw it out. Your W is the same as all WWs, for the EXACT reasons you listed right there. Trust us.

Another thing that's hard to get across is that I honestly feel that I am not plan B. WW is running from her problems. If I went and filed, she would probably be happy.

Did you copy and paste this from one of my posts from like 2 months ago? No, you didn't. It's freaky how similar these WWs behave, and how similar we feel about them.

Its weird. She doesnt temp check me.

There's another thing I said. That's OK, she doesn't need to. You're giving her all the info she needs. She'll only start temp checking when you stop being predictable. So stop being predictable. And then ignore the temp checks. Another possibility is that she might not temp check you at all. So what? Doesn't matter. Do what you need to do and forget what her reaction will be.

WW acts like she is extremely shamed when she is around me.

Why? Think about it.

But again that stubborn pride gets in the way of her remorse. So she just feels shame and guilt.

Seems like a lot of us have WWs with stubborn pride, shame and guilt (we think), and no remorse. So accept that for what it is. The pride hides the shame and guilt. The remorse would open that all up and make it unbearable. That's how they cope with what they're doing. It doesn't stop them from doing it. If anything it makes it easier.

I read tons of other stitches where the WS is wayward and then once in a while shows a glimmer of hope, aka a temp check, and even talks positively about the future with the LBS. My WW does not do that. She is either completely withdrawn or even when she is around, in avoidance mode.

OK, we talked about temp checks. Don't feel bad that you aren't getting any. You're not getting any because she's in avoidance mode. Why is she in avoidance mode, hmm? You're in her face all the time. Leave her alone! Go do something else.

But this is where she expects me to be pleading and begging etc.

Nope. Mind reading. It doesn't matter what she expects. It's good that you aren't begging and pleading. But remember that pressure is the same as pursuit. Anything that makes her uncomfortable.

I read another stitch that ended in success where the LBS was kind, not pursuing, but used small loving touches etc. Like calming touches. I may try that sparingly to see if I can get WW to talk to me about feelings so I can listen.

NO. Don't do it. Study the WW threads to understand how these women think. It's a paradox, I know. But when you send someone the message that they can talk to OM on the phone, then lie to you that they aren't, and you're fine with it and want to touch her and be all friendly...it sends the message that you're weak, that you don't respect yourself, that you aren't a good "mate" because you won't protect her, not even from herself. It's confusing because at this point you SHOULDN'T be trying to protect her. That's pursuit. What you should be trying to protect is the image she has of you as a respectable man who doesn't tolerate crap from anyone, not even her.

She is stubborn as a mule and has zero common sense.

Said you and pretty much half of all the LBHs here.

I may try and take some video. The reason for that is that I want to show you all what's going on.

Don't bother, you can't post video here. Anyway, we know what it's like. Your W isn't too different from ours.

It seems that a lot of people here think I'm just walking around angry and pissed off and we are both walking around with our hair on fire.

Well, look, we can only judge you based on what you say. We don't know you. Several different people say you come across as angry, and I've been here long enough to know that they don't say that about just anybody. So there's something in the way you write that makes you seem angry. Of course that doesn't mean it's true. But what a GREAT opportunity to study yourself. How does your choice of words, your attitude, your general sense of reality, all that stuff, how does it affect how people see you? That could be a very useful lesson. How do you come across to others, and why? You won't be able to answer that yet but it would be a great thing to talk about with an IC.

So I just will not pursue her.

Good. That's step 1. There's plenty of work to be done. But step 1 makes the rest of the work possible.

Honestly I write for a living. I write legal letters. Most of my writing is very factual and to the point. So it may come across angry. I can honestly say I'm angry.

I haven't been touching. We cut chatted when she talked to me. But I kept it brief. Again even though I'm home I have left her alone.

I have been friendly. That's about it.
[/quote]


I meant to say not angry. I'm NOT angry. Resentful yes. Angry no

[SoTorn]

Hi Guys,

When you say that you understand your part in the breakdown or that you share the blame for the problems in the marriage have you really thought about what you did or did not do? Do you have examples with legitimate results where you can pinpoint?

In the event of the relationship ending and you starting a new one, do you know what you need to do or not to do differently to avoid the same results?

Do any of you know your spouse’s language of love?

Peace

Max

I understand fully. I understood years ago. I have changed significantly over the last few years because I needed to. I wanted a strong marriage. I made the effort. However it was too late because she was full tilt focused on herself.

[SoTorn]

Hi ST,

I've been here for awhile, but don't like to post unless I have read an entire thread. If I had more time in a day, I would reply more often to more people. I'm a W who had a WH return and have been piecing for several years now. I read all of your posts. Your responses are a bit maddening, so I had to weigh in! You have some of the best posters here in your corner, and they are giving you fantastic advice, and I read NO WHERE in your responses that you are 1. Actually listening to the advice, 2. Wanting to understand how they are correct and how you can start making small changes, and 3. Then discussing how you can implement said changes.

You mention that you are not angry, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that you are. I think you are spending more energy trying to convince us that you've got this down than trying to make adjustments that could really benefit you. When I read your posts I see that you are making a lot of assumptions about your W and mind reading. That needs to change for you to be successful. I also sense a holier than thou or possibly arrogant attitude. How can we help you unpack the feelings that may be leading to that thinking?

Amoafwl talks a lot about small goals and that they need to be measurable. Do you have a list of goals? You are working on your GAL and trying to create distance, while both living in the same house. That's hard to do, I'm sure! How can you slowly start to shift your thinking about her, stop the mind reading, and learn about validation techniques? It has been explained to you, but we would like to see you start implementing it.

There is another poster here named Orange. I can't bring myself to ever post to him. He has poepe here convinced his WW is mentally ill, a narcissist or what have you (she might be, but I doubt he or any of us can diagnose her), and he is easily defensive with posters. He spends more time telling us how she has issues and how he is DBing well than taking any advice and showing us how he is implementing the advice and making real progress. What I'm trying it say is, don't be like that guy, plain and simple. And remember, poeple here are only spending their time because they want to help others, truly. We have all been in your similar sitch in one way or another.

I actually see a lot of hope in your sitch. She is still there and it is still early. That being said, you have A LOT OF work to do, man. Personal growth. And that takes time and is hard to do. You need to strip off some of your armor, allow yourself to become vulnerable, and really, really listen to these wise people here. Can you do that? I challenge you to go back and read their words again. Think only about how they might be right and where you might be able to make some small changes in your thinking.

Blu

How am I not taking advice though? I am all for advice. The assumptions that I'm chasing my WW around like a puppy with my hair on fire are incorrect.

I will break down what I am doing now.

I am GAL

I am getting out of the house, A LOT.
I am hanging with friends for the benefit of getting closer to others
I am going out with my children for the benefit of my relationship with them
I am going out alone for the benefit of my health
I am starting school for the benefit of my future

I only speak with WW when she tries to speak with me. WW is not reasonable at all, therefore within seconds of her talking about anything related to our situation, she starts yelling and blaming me.

Therefore I do not engage and I withdraw from the situation.

Very rarely does the wife just have a small chit chat. If she does and its random, like about TV etc, the neighbor, I let her initiate and I am cordial but kind.

I am not attacking WW or demanding anything or sending her sob stories.

I am focused on myself and my children. Yes its IHS so I have to interact with her. I am not just constantly battling with WW. We barely talk. The only time we do is of she initiates.

Yesterday she was just in a better mood. Still not talking about the future. But I could tell that she was at bare minimum, more comfortable around me and noticed my physical appearance. That's it. I take it at face value and I'm happy that we aren't fighting.


I am GAL madly, except when I am exhausted like yesterday evening. I am not fighting, approaching, pleading, begging, engaging etc. I'm being happy and my best when I am here. When she engages and it's normal chit chat I respond but I'm short and sweet.

I wont talk about finances because there is no need to. My $$$ is available to pay the bills as is hers.

I really dont know why people think I'm not taking their advice. Yes I write factually and usually without emotion. That doesn't mean I'm arguing or doing the opposite of what I'm being advised to do.

Yes I am comfortable that I am GAL and doing a 180. I have written down my goals, my behaviors etc. I wrote down the 180 of how I usually react to her and I am sticking to that.

[SoTorn]

Maybe someone can chime in and ask me yes or no questions to figure out what I am an what I'm not doing.

[SoTorn]

Something I want to add. The last three years I made a HUGE effort to address issues with me that contributed to the unhappiness in our marriage. During that time my relationships with my kids and at work flourished. I got a promotion at work. My kids trust me more than ever before.

In that time frame I tries to be the best husband I could be. I was an [censored] 3+ years ago. Not a crazy [censored], but I wouldn't listen to understand. I went through a lot of counseling etc to get myself to be the husband that listens and talks and understands.

I had already started to be a much better person. The wife started with WAW 1.5 years ago. In a limited capacity and it then grew to the WW with an EA and then recently the PA. I feel, that since the wife started to checkout about 1.5 years ago, she didn't notice the changes I made. Everyone else but her noticed.

The biggest issue I have to focus on is doing a 180. I used to constantly ask her what I could be doing g differently, where my wife went etc. That lead to begging and pleading when I saw the writing on the wall.

Now I dont do that at all. The second issue was GAL. I should have been doing this a while now. Unfortunately i just didnt know until my WW moved upstairs on September 24th. That's when i found DB.

Over the last 3 years i have listened to understand, validated her feelings etc. So doing that is not new to me. It just didnt work.

The way i post makes it seem that my stitch is brand new. The fact is that it's about 1.5 years old already.

The kids left with WW to go to her moms for Thanksgiving lunch. The kids did not want to go. But i helped WW wrangle them and get them into the car. Mother in law did. Ot invite me. Because i am the boogeyman.

Oh well. My kids wont let her talk smack about me. MIL is a horrible person. You could write a book on how not to be by watching her.

I will take kids to my dads at 4PM. They are happy to go with me there. WW is invited but she wont go.

[Adam04]

Hi ST,

Sorry to hear of your Sitch. I have been following but haven't read every post. The replies I do read, I tend to grab what I can from them and apply them to my own sitch because most of us are going through the same thing.

I'm sorry to hear that you made these wonderful changes and W chose OM. I can imagine there is a lot of anger in that. I also sense the frustration you have from trying everything and it not working. You've tried the validation and it hasn't worked.

I will say this, I thought I was validating at first and several people told me I was doing it all wrong. Im a newbie to this and still learning, I am still going at it with a fresh look. I'm not saying you aren't doing the right things. Sometimes the right things at the wrong times matter. Sometimes even if you did all the right things with the right intentions, it's up to the other person. We still have to remind ourselves we can not change the other person. Keep GAL, 180, post.

BLU, I've read what you had to say and I take those things to heart as well. There's so much wonderful advice here and wonderful people taking their time. If only I had the ability to be able to read something once and really understand it all, I could be much happier and more assured.

ST, patience...as you've said, the biggest issue is your 180, you are doing things for her and not solely for yourself to improve you but it sounds like, rather, you are trying to change to something she would approve of. That wont work and it'll get you conflicted. Keep your mind open & heart open to the advice and listening.

[ovrrnbw]

ST, you have Blu posting on your thread and Sandi and all these great posters.

I'm still holding out hope for that kind of attention!