Dealing with a WW trying to save marriage pt2

[neffer]

Then the usual headshots from Amoafwl.

Read ST, good advices

[SoTorn]

I'm not saying I'm not to blame for the unhappiness in our marriage. I have absolutely offered to listen to her side of that to tell me what led to this. What I am referring to when she is blaming is her justification of her affair. I will not shoulder the blame for her decision.

It's not that I dont want to avoid conflicting ideas. WW cannot have a discussion without getting heated. I have tried the "I cant talk to you like this so we can talk when you cool down" she never cools down.

I have advised WW several times that I'm here to support her if she wants to talk about her feelings. WW doesnt try to talk about feelings. Ww approaches me like "so how much debt have you racked up?" "What are you hiding in your car when you lock it?" Stuff like that.

I have made myself available to her. I'm not gone 100% of the time. I dont just lash out and say "you did all this"

.I specify "I understand my part in our unhappiness, if you want to talk to tell me what you needed to make you happy I will listen"

I have let her go. I am not dictating anything beyond asking her to not mistreat me or my children. That and I have asked her not to speak with OM in this house because its disrespectful.

And I have made it very clear that although I am open to reconcile, for the time being, that I understand our marriage is over. I advised WW that I dont expect her to just move her stuff downstairs and we can then all act like nothing happened.

I have stated that if she wants that, I am willing to work with her to address what broke in our marriage so that we can be better people for each other and for our family. I have stated that I will be happy to work with her to resolve everything.

I advised her that even if she doesnt want to reconcile, I am here to support her emotionally so that she can get to the point where she is happy and we can be friends.


I will try to nod and smile when she wants to talk. However, if I hear any blame toward me for her decision, I'm not validating that. I have advised her that I understand how she feels. I understand why she did what she did. But the actual decision itself to cheat cannot be blamed on me.

[burned]

if I hear any blame toward me for her decision, I'm not validating that. I have advised her that I understand how she feels. I understand why she did what she did. But the actual decision itself to cheat cannot be blamed on me.

Maybe the issue isn't the fact that YOU understand how SHE feels. Maybe the issue is that she DOESN'T FEEL that you understand how she feels, because the way you're communicating it maybe doesn't reach her.

Compare these two things:

1. Everyone on here understands that you're angry. It's obvious to me, isn't it obvious to you that we understand?

2. Of COURSE you're angry, I would be just as angry if I had to put up with what you're putting up with.

Now, which of those two make YOU feel better, more understood, more likely to feel calm and willing to think about things rather than just fight back?

Version 1 is sort of what you're doing with your W. Version 2 is the way to validate.

And don't forget: validation is NOT agreement or accepting blame or responsibility or anything. It's about emotions. The message you are trying to convey to the other person is, "It makes sense to me why a person in the situation you think you're in might feel the way you feel." To do that, you have to identify what they are feeling, tell them that you've identified it, and show them that you believe that it's OK to feel that way (based on THEIR perception of reality).

Does that make sense? It's hard for us men to understand because it has almost NOTHING to do with facts. It's about the feeling. If you can listen to your W say "blah blah blah" and all you have to say is "oh, blah blah blah must be scary for you," you're not saying "blah blah blah IS scary," because maybe it isn't. But then she feels like you heard her and you care about her and she matters and she is a worthwhile person, and then she will want to touch your body all over, all the time. Apparently that's how women work. And I hate to admit it but that's probably exactly what OM did to get her in the sack.

[burned]

I have let her go. I am not dictating anything beyond asking her to not mistreat me or my children. That and I have asked her not to speak with OM in this house because its disrespectful.

Here's another area where you can make some serious progress. This is where you need a boundary! Forget about asking her. When I married my W I asked her to not sleep with anyone except me. Well, so much for that.

This is an opportunity to set a boundary, but I'm not an expert on boundaries.

Maybe something like this: "W, when you talk to OM while living here, I feel disrespected and taken advantage of. If you continue, I will have no choice but to ..." Whatever the consequence is.

And then when she decides to keep doing it, you FOLLOW THROUGH with the consequence.

[SoTorn]

I have let her go. I am not dictating anything beyond asking her to not mistreat me or my children. That and I have asked her not to speak with OM in this house because its disrespectful.

Here's another area where you can make some serious progress. This is where you need a boundary! Forget about asking her. When I married my W I asked her to not sleep with anyone except me. Well, so much for that.

This is an opportunity to set a boundary, but I'm not an expert on boundaries.

Maybe something like this: "W, when you talk to OM while living here, I feel disrespected and taken advantage of. If you continue, I will have no choice but to ..." Whatever the consequence is.

And then when she decides to keep doing it, you FOLLOW THROUGH with the consequence.

This is where I am stuck a bit. What should the consequence be if she does this?

She used to sit in the bathroom for 45 minutes talking to him. The other day she was in the bathroom for a while. I told her the same thing. "Its very disrespectful to me and your family to talk to OM at our home"

Previously she didn't give a crap. The last time she kept telling me "I wasnt on the phone I was just in the bathroom."

I cant shut her phone off. I could use some ideas on the "or else" part.

My stitch is unique in the fact that my wife has not always been a narcissist. My wife has stubborn pride. She has never tried to use me. She is the other way around, she feels people use her. I am home today. WW is here. We have talked normal about just normal things like cleaning the house, spoke about the kids grades. Again, WW has stopped hiding from me. WW has a bad cough. I found her some cough meds in the MBR and gave the to her. She had a coughing fit and I patted her on the back. I'm not trying to be weird. Just something I always do.

She didn't recoil or anything. Previously she was avoiding me like the plague. Another thing that's hard to get across is that I honestly feel that I am not plan B. WW is running from her problems. If I went and filed, she would probably be happy.

Its weird. She doesnt temp check me. I know that a WW can be manipulative. She was doing that before BD. Now it's like shes running scared. WW acts like she is extremely shamed when she is around me.

But again that stubborn pride gets in the way of her remorse. So she just feels shame and guilt.

I read tons of other stitches where the WS is wayward and then once in a while shows a glimmer of hope, aka a temp check, and even talks positively about the future with the LBS. My WW does not do that. She is either completely withdrawn or even when she is around, in avoidance mode.

She doesnt reach out to me and like touch me, or give me hope etc. She just straight up leaves me alone. But this is where she expects me to be pleading and begging etc.

I guess I kind of temp checked her by patting her back while she coughed. I patted her back and unlike before, she didn't recoil.

I read another stitch that ended in success where the LBS was kind, not pursuing, but used small loving touches etc. Like calming touches. I may try that sparingly to see if I can get WW to talk to me about feelings so I can listen.

Hard to explain my WW. Shes type A personality. Amazingly gorgeous. She is extremely motivated, educated and intelligent. She is stubborn as a mule and has zero common sense.

Only during the EA and PA did she turn the gas up on the gas lighting and saying mean [censored] to me about me. Once BD happened she stopped the insults, but started acting like I was after her. Like I was just playing opossum.

Like I'm putting my guard down and if she does I'm going to steam roll her.

I may try and take some video. The reason for that is that I want to show you all what's going on.

It seems that a lot of people here think I'm just walking around angry and pissed off and we are both walking around with our hair on fire.

Today, beyond the initial odd questions from her. It literally could have been a normal weekend day between us less the affection and intimacy we had.

I have been dressing very nice now that I dropped 80lbs. I make sure that before I come out of my room I clean MBR, shower and get dressed. So I look great and smell nice. I wear her favorite cologne that she bought me.

WW has been in my presence a lot today. I'm very tired. I hit the gym hard last night so I can barely walk.

However I have cleaned the house, all of my usual chores when shes gone. I dont like clutter or grime.

WW noticed my new pants and shirt and shoes and sai I looked really nice. I feel that if I tried to make an effort she would probably be intimate with me. However, I dont want that right now, even though I'm a man and shes gorgeous.

So far today has been good. Just ran a couple of chores and came home. I'm beat so being scarce isn't happening today.

So I just will not pursue her.

[SoTorn]

I left for a bit. Came back and I sat down on the couch upstairs. WW wanted to see a movie. A movie I want to see but the kids wont go with her. I offered if she wanted. I simply just want to see the movie. But she couldn't find a show that wasnt sold out or wasnt just front row.

I honestly just want to see the movie. If she would have found tickets I think she would have invited me.

WW decided to go to the store instead. WW is very conflicted. Movies were something we enjoyed a lot. I think it would actually help us if she invited.. I would never invite myself. But bsbyybsteps etc. WW was very tolerant for us.

[neffer]

You need to get out of the house and GAL. You need to go dark. She must have time and space. Can you give her that?

You are all over the place man...

[burned]

What should the consequence be if she does this?

You decide. It's your life. In fact, the more you make your own decisions based on what matters to you, the better you look in the eyes of other people. It's a fact. So choose a consequence that is reasonable, fair, or anything else that is one of your values. Unfortunately we can't choose for you. But when you think of a boundary you should always approach it with the mindset of, "What do I need to do to protect myself?" So you also have to consider what you're protecting yourself from, and why. There's no easy answer. But if you're using the term "boundary" when what you mean is "ultimatum" then you're off target. You're looking for something YOU can DO to get HER to do what YOU want and that will ALWAYS backfire.

My recommendation, at least for now, is to just walk away. You don't like when she's on the phone with OM while you're there? Then don't be there. Protect yourself from the hurt/anger by just walking away. That's the point of GAL. Go do something else. Leave her alone. That's your best shot.

My stitch is unique in the fact that my wife has not always been a narcissist. My wife has stubborn pride. She has never tried to use me. She is the other way around, she feels people use her.

Said EVERY single LBH with a WW. Dude, I said that for like a month after I got here, and I used it as an excuse to not do what people here were telling me would work. Then I started reading my own threads again and it just went click. It's OK, we all get that thought sometimes. Throw it out. Your W is the same as all WWs, for the EXACT reasons you listed right there. Trust us.

Another thing that's hard to get across is that I honestly feel that I am not plan B. WW is running from her problems. If I went and filed, she would probably be happy.

Did you copy and paste this from one of my posts from like 2 months ago? No, you didn't. It's freaky how similar these WWs behave, and how similar we feel about them.

Its weird. She doesnt temp check me.

There's another thing I said. That's OK, she doesn't need to. You're giving her all the info she needs. She'll only start temp checking when you stop being predictable. So stop being predictable. And then ignore the temp checks. Another possibility is that she might not temp check you at all. So what? Doesn't matter. Do what you need to do and forget what her reaction will be.[/quote]

WW acts like she is extremely shamed when she is around me.

Why? Think about it.

But again that stubborn pride gets in the way of her remorse. So she just feels shame and guilt.

Seems like a lot of us have WWs with stubborn pride, shame and guilt (we think), and no remorse. So accept that for what it is. The pride hides the shame and guilt. The remorse would open that all up and make it unbearable. That's how they cope with what they're doing. It doesn't stop them from doing it. If anything it makes it easier.

I read tons of other stitches where the WS is wayward and then once in a while shows a glimmer of hope, aka a temp check, and even talks positively about the future with the LBS. My WW does not do that. She is either completely withdrawn or even when she is around, in avoidance mode.

OK, we talked about temp checks. Don't feel bad that you aren't getting any. You're not getting any because she's in avoidance mode. Why is she in avoidance mode, hmm? You're in her face all the time. Leave her alone! Go do something else.

But this is where she expects me to be pleading and begging etc.

Nope. Mind reading. It doesn't matter what she expects. It's good that you aren't begging and pleading. But remember that pressure is the same as pursuit. Anything that makes her uncomfortable.

I read another stitch that ended in success where the LBS was kind, not pursuing, but used small loving touches etc. Like calming touches. I may try that sparingly to see if I can get WW to talk to me about feelings so I can listen.

NO. Don't do it. Study the WW threads to understand how these women think. It's a paradox, I know. But when you send someone the message that they can talk to OM on the phone, then lie to you that they aren't, and you're fine with it and want to touch her and be all friendly...it sends the message that you're weak, that you don't respect yourself, that you aren't a good "mate" because you won't protect her, not even from herself. It's confusing because at this point you SHOULDN'T be trying to protect her. That's pursuit. What you should be trying to protect is the image she has of you as a respectable man who doesn't tolerate crap from anyone, not even her.

She is stubborn as a mule and has zero common sense.

Said you and pretty much half of all the LBHs here.

I may try and take some video. The reason for that is that I want to show you all what's going on.

Don't bother, you can't post video here. Anyway, we know what it's like. Your W isn't too different from ours.

It seems that a lot of people here think I'm just walking around angry and pissed off and we are both walking around with our hair on fire.

Well, look, we can only judge you based on what you say. We don't know you. Several different people say you come across as angry, and I've been here long enough to know that they don't say that about just anybody. So there's something in the way you write that makes you seem angry. Of course that doesn't mean it's true. But what a GREAT opportunity to study yourself. How does your choice of words, your attitude, your general sense of reality, all that stuff, how does it affect how people see you? That could be a very useful lesson. How do you come across to others, and why? You won't be able to answer that yet but it would be a great thing to talk about with an IC.

So I just will not pursue her.

Good. That's step 1. There's plenty of work to be done. But step 1 makes the rest of the work possible.

[SoTorn]

You need to get out of the house and GAL. You need to go dark. She must have time and space. Can you give her that?

You are all over the place man...

I have been gone every day for weeks. I am exhausted. I left her alone for the most part. She made dinner again. I left and went shopping for a bit.

How am I all over the place? I have been going full tilt on GAL. Been scarce when shes home. Up 7muntil yesterday she literally stayed in her room. I didnt go up there at all.

After dinner she actually sat by me and put a Netflix show on. She asked me if that's cool for us to watch. I said sure so watched for a fee. But I still had chores for myself I wanted done so I just left her alone after about 10 minutes.

I am just way too tired to go out right now. She told me goodnight as I headed to bed. I thanked her.



WW

[SoTorn]

And I'm not meaning I think I'm plan A. I mean I'm plan nothing lol. Her plan A is D and plan B is a mediated D