MLC, WAS, or both

[burned]

OK here I am. The first thing I want to say is that although my W and I are in a straight M, your W uses some of the same concepts and even similar terminology. Don't worry, it's part of the same "script" that many of us here are aware of. Anyway, I hope I can be helpful in shedding some light on this mess for you.

First, a side note about your most recent post, a good IC should be able to keep her personal opinions out of her professional work. But (and I work in the same field), we're all human, and subtle things can have big effects on how we think and act. Here's something I'd like to share. My W's IC not only has a side job as a D coach, I happen to know from small-town gossip that the IC and her first H were D because he had the same mental illness that I have. Ask me how well my sitch is going...but at least I can take pride in my perseverance despite the fact that pretty much every card was stacked against me. They even threw in the jokers and those cards that tell you how to play poker. Ha!

You asked:

[Don't even ask me how WW reacted when I said, "W, you say you were unhappy because of me. I say you were unhappy and I happened to be standing next to you."]

Ok, now I want to know if you're open to sharing. I ask because that's how I feel of course, and I'm now hearing that I should definitely NOT say this to W.

DO NOT SAY THIS. It is invalidating, first of all. I've learned that the best framework for how you communicate with ANYONE is as follows: you have your view, I have mine, and it's fine for them not to align. Of course the 2nd and 3rd parts of that can and maybe should happen using your internal voice.

What I did, for months after BD (before discovering DB, and even after) was to make it about ME. I was defensive. So when I said that to her, about how maybe it wasn't 100% my fault, she got very angry and probably stormed off. I can't remember. But I remember that pretty much every time W tried to air a grievance, she was left feeling like she was wrong for feeling the way she felt. Hmm, actually that began LONG before BD and was a major problem in our M, in hindsight. I wish I knew then what I know now.

When you talk to W, validate, then admit to yourself your own truth, but probably don't say it out loud. So you can say, "Now that you explained it to me that way, I can see how someone could be quite unhappy in a R like that." And sure, it's plausible. What I did, in essence, was to say, "Gimme a break, W, you had been depressed for years and refused to take medication or see someone, don't pin that sh't on me." And regardless of what is or was true, how did she then feel? Bad. And what do you do when someone makes you feel bad? You leave. So it works against your goal, if your goal is to stay M. Accept that FOR NOW, it HAS to be about HER. Consider it a useful fiction.

I should add that depression is complex. I know it from personal experience. It is a cause OF, and can be caused BY, relationship problems. So it's never as clear as either of us like to think. My W would argue that she tried so hard to be happy but felt unhappy every time I "dragged her down" with my negativity. OK. My way of seeing it is that she was trying really hard to be happy and wasn't really succeeding, and my actions toward her certainly didn't help but it's not fair to blame me for somehow sabotaging her attempts. Or maybe she is 100% correct and I'm defensive about it because to admit that she is 100% correct would put the blame squarely on me, which might be more than I can handle right now.

Psychology is weird. I hope any of that was helpful because from here it looks like a bunch of rambling.

[Yail]

This is so, so helpful. I'm surprised I didn't see this at first: It would invalidate her. So not what I'm trying to do. It [censored] because I really am anticipating the D speach tomorrow, and what I will WANT to do is tell her how she can't keep blaming me for EVERYTHING when she stonewalled me for way, way too long (due to depression).

But yet again, it's not about me. I'm always the one who steps aside for her happiness in an arguement which in our past R was a problem. But now that we're here I have to do it again. Frustrating, but I love her, so yes I can give her validation that she is a real, live, person with real, live and valid feelings. Crazy logic, but valid feelings.

I appreciate you sharing Burned. Thank you.

[burned]

1. Validation is great. For all people. Once you start doing it (might be a bit awkward at first) you'll start wishing more people did it to you. Every time a kid says "Mommy/daddy, I'm scared" and the mommy/daddy says "That's silly, you'll be fine," I cringe a little.

2. You seem to be putting some negative anticipation into the D speech. You're breaking the "no mind reading" rule. :P No, but seriously, intuition is a powerful force, and you could be right. BUT: what will you do about handling it as best you can? Since you know it's coming, can you psych yourself up a little? When I knew my W planned on bringing up S, I made sure to run a mile or two. My ankle was sore, but I ran anyway. (In the end I broke it and it still hasn't healed.) OK, well, at least for that evening I was relatively calm and feeling physically OK, making the drama/trauma that much less unbearable.

So, the question for Yail: what three things will you do, for Yail, to make Yail feel as good as she can before that talk happens? Maybe a bit too late for a massage and haircut. But can you exercise? Read your favorite children's book? That one might make you cry but it might keep you in touch with who you REALLY are, who you ALWAYS have been. Then her words don't get to your core. Other ideas: cook your favorite meal. Wine? Seltzer? Green tea? Your favorite music (hopefully it doesn't remind you of W), crank it up. Try the "Ovrrnbw Method" (he's another guy around here) and scream "Yes!" a few times and pump your fists in the air. I dunno, those are some options.

Tell us which 3 things you will do, maybe tonight and/or tomorrow morning. Let us hold you accountable.

3. Regardless of how that talk goes tomorrow, you identified a really great area of growth: "I'm always the one who steps aside for her happiness." That right there is a psychological gold mine, and if you're willing/able to dig into it (not necessarily here, but maybe with a good IC) then you'll make some pretty impressive strides in a lot of different areas. And maybe that is what will unleash the kicka$$ person inside of you. And maybe THAT will make W think twice about moving on. The way I see it, if you are a person who not only cares enough about others to be willing to sacrifice themselves for others' happiness, but ALSO knows how to stand for themselves and keep themselves strong so that they can continue to make others happy...that's a keeper.

And just for fun, google "Obama you got this GIF" and find the one where he's in sunglasses wagging his finger at you. Makes me laugh every time.

[Yail]

2. You seem to be putting some negative anticipation into the D speech. You're breaking the "no mind reading" rule. :P

the best thing about this is that a few weeks ago when W and I were still talking more about our relationship, we made this rule for each other (before I found this forum). It's just so TRUE no matter what circumstances you find yourself in. We knew each other so well and all of a sudden we didn't, and the making assumptions as to how the other was feeling was becoming a problem. Can't say she's stuck to the rule, but I sure have tried very consciously as it really does help with detaching. Forgive my above slip-up . I would say it's intuition though, based on a convo we had earlier this week. I'll be reporting back here in the next few days as to what really happens

3. Regardless of how that talk goes tomorrow, you identified a really great area of growth: "I'm always the one who steps aside for her happiness." That right there is a psychological gold mine, and if you're willing/able to dig into it (not necessarily here, but maybe with a good IC) then you'll make some pretty impressive strides in a lot of different areas.

blame my mother.

(That was a JOKE! :))

So, the question for Yail: what three things will you do, for Yail, to make Yail feel as good as she can before that talk happens? Maybe a bit too late for a massage and haircut. But can you exercise? Read your favorite children's book? That one might make you cry but it might keep you in touch with who you REALLY are, who you ALWAYS have been. Then her words don't get to your core. Other ideas: cook your favorite meal. Wine? Seltzer? Green tea? Your favorite music (hopefully it doesn't remind you of W), crank it up. Try the "Ovrrnbw Method" (he's another guy around here) and scream "Yes!" a few times and pump your fists in the air. I dunno, those are some options.

Tell us which 3 things you will do, maybe tonight and/or tomorrow morning. Let us hold you accountable.

1. So I HATE the idea of formal exercise and it's stupidly cold outside but exercise is on the short list of GAL/self-improvement things I'm trying to focus on. So I can go for a nice long walk and find a good hill to just destroy.

2. I'm back to practicing bassoon after 10 years of not playing. My reeds came in the mail last week. I can practice for a bit in the AM. I'm not as terrible as I thought I was! Scales and long-tones. They're important. Practice your scales kiddos.

3. I can get out of the house and do an errand or two. Something that needs to be done that is just hanging over me. I think I'll bring all the old, dried up paints from the garage to the Environmental Depot. Something off the check-list. I'm notoriously bad at doing stuff like this, and it's something to change. Take care of the damn house, feel good it's done.

3.5: Honestly, I can get a good cry in before hand. I feel better after a quick 2-3 minute time of tears. I don't get hysterical, but the big tears come quickly and I feel calmer when they're released. I feel more powerful, like, "yeah. I cried. Now I'm fine. What's next?"

[Twofeet]

Yail cardio, strength training, and sleep will help you with your emotional and mental health. Figure out what body type you want to end up with and build a routine around it. Push yourself. I know it can be challenging, but exercise will help.

[burned]

OK. So before your dreaded talk tomorrow, bring the paint to the depot on the way to the hill. Destroy that hill. You get home, take a hot shower, twice as long as usual, like the kind where you just let the water run over your hair and onto your shoulders. Sing the stupidest song you can think of, really loudly. Dry off, put in the new reeds, and play the Simpsons theme song on the bassoon. Laugh at yourself. Then you can cry if you want. I think after all that you’ll be tired maybe? Or relaxed.

At any rate, you will have done several things that benefit you:
1. you accomplished a task, however small, demonstrating to yourself that you are a human being who can exert her free will in order to influence the external word. Don’t laugh, it’s meaningful. (google “Zorro Circle”)
2. you did something to modify your usual routine, paired with something that feels good. In this way you are “reprogramming” your emotional brain to connect the experience of change (which can be scary) with the feeling of pleasure.
3. you did something meaningful but silly and moderately challenging. Humor works. If you’re gonna play the bassoon after a hiatus, set your sights low. No Bach concertos, please. Simpsons!
4. crying is fine. I hope it is, I do it a lot. Let it out.

Obama in sunglasses says, “You got this.”

[Yail]

Thanks burned. I know you say no Bach, but I'm really in need of a Vivaldi fix. So I might ignore you on that one

Google: "Breaking Winds Mario". A bit more my speed.

I went to a movie tonight because it's been something I was really intellectually interested in. MIGHT have fallen asleep for about 10 minutes mid-film. But near the end my mind wandered to tomorrow and I had a pit in my stomach. And I realized it's not just sadness there....it's FEAR. I'm actually afraid of how my interaction with W will go tomorrow. And that's not okay!

She is in no way someone I should fear. But I have always wanted to not rock the boat (see earlier post on putting her needs first). I certainly defer to her if it's something I have no real opinion on. But the fear is something new for me to acknowledge, and I think it's important I sense that it is there. I know I should have nothing to fear. Historically I've been very, very afraid of change (key point: me being afraid to discuss moving for her work). Our relationship has already changed. I can't "hold" it in place by being afraid, which has kind of been my M.O. This is a learned behavior that I can directly trace in my history, and clearly one I need to bring up in IC.

I'm in charge of myself 100% and that's all I can be in charge of. But I think I have some internalizing to do on that one. I'm glad I've acknowledged the fear tonight so I can sleep on it and be aware of it tomorrow.

[ovrrnbw]

She is in no way someone I should fear. But I have always wanted to not rock the boat (see earlier post on putting her needs first)

If it hasn't been suggested yet, you should read No More Mr Nice Guy.

It's good that you're sensing the fear and realizing that you can't control everything.

[Yail]

Thanks for the suggestion Ovrrnbw. I took a peek and it seems my local library has it!

It's so interesting how control plays out in our lives. I'm a very relaxed person and really tend to let things flow naturally UNLESS the peace is disturbed. I must have all people (in the family) happy at all times, and that's where my control and fear come into play. It's like a (this will be censored so I'll do it for them) chessboard I watch to be sure that everyone is content and no one is fighting. Keep the peace at all costs.

[burned]

You are very insightful, and very articulate. You talk the talk, but can you walk the walk, when the going gets tough? (And can you mix metaphors better than that?) I’m asking just in case. Some people (who, me?) can have a very good understanding of themselves but then have trouble using that understanding to change their behavior (behavior being a loose term that includes emotional responses to events). Just something to consider as you embark on this journey.

You’re right that issues of control will crop up everywhere. If you’re a “nice guy” with “nice guy syndrome” (NGS), a lot of what you do is aimed at controlling others, even in subtle ways, so that your world stays predictable. There’s an anxiety component, of course, but it’s also a personality style, so it requires more effort to deal with.

On that note, wondering if Ovr saw you talking about W and assumed you are her H. I wonder what it would be like for you to read No More Mr. Nice Guy (NMMG), because it’s written for men specifically. I do think you have NGS but the G is for girl. The book could be really useful for you but you’ll have to ignore a lot of the pronouns, that’s all.

Based on what you said, another helpful book is Codependent No More by Melody Beattie. I also enjoyed Conquering Shame and Codependency by Darlene Lancer. Seems like most of the codependency books are geared toward people whose loved ones have addictions. But if you set that aside, change “alcoholic husband” into “WW” as you’re reading it, there’s lots to learn.

Not that you need to spend your days reading self-help books (that’s my avoidance strategy but doesn’t have to be yours). Another one I found useful that people around here recommend is The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F**k. I also enjoyed one called F**k Feelings. And the third cheekily-titles one that was worth reading was Unf**k Yourself.

Good luck today!