How is IC telling her to do what makes her happy different than validating? If WW feels they need to do something, and IC says "take action!", will that not ultimately help WW see what is or is not important to her?
WW's function from their emotions. They are ready to wash their hands of everything, and just do whatever makes them feel good.....regardless of the cost. Selfishness is the WW's motivator for everything she does. If it's not about her is some form/fashion, or if she can't benefit in some way......then she's not interested.
I think what Torn was referring to is how many IC's are not pro-marriage and actually encourages the WW to do whatever is necessary in order to find her happiness out there. This is not what a WW needs to hear from a professional. She's not logical, and she will take those words and run with it, to break vows, ties/bonds, commitments, and relationships. She'll hurt whoever stands in her way. In the WW's mind, rather than hearing how she can work through her issues, she's hearing encouragement to continue living a wayward lifestyle. Since the WW already blames her H for all her unhappiness, one of the first things she'll do is break up the M. In her viewpoint, it takes care of her problem of unhappiness.
Thank you for this explanation Sandi2. I guess what I'm not quite understanding is whether either course of action (breaking the M and acting out vs working through issues) truly has a major impact on the WW. Don't they have to go through their process no matter what? As I understood it they are in a full state of selfishness and being fully irrational. So would they have the ability to truly work through with IC? Does this advance their progression through their crisis? Would breaking-up the M and acting out not potentially bring them closer to rock bottom?
I guess I've been viewing this as a process of a certain length that they need to go through on their own no matter what. How much of an impact do external forces really have on the WW?
I might have missed something in your thread, so forgive me if this is redundant. But can you explain why you say IC is "obviously not helping" WW? Were you referring to not helping your relationship, or not helping her as an individual?
IC is not helping WW. She was going prior to BD. I believe her IC just told her to do what makes her happy. But then I'm just assuming. In our one MC session right after BD the counselor advised WW that she had some serious personal issues she needed to work on based on how she gas lighted me and had an A.
How is IC telling her to do what makes her happy different than validating? If WW feels they need to do something, and IC says "take action!", will that not ultimately help WW see what is or is not important to her?
It's not different. That's why most IC are pointless in a situation that requires WW redirect their attention away from their selfish desires.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
So WW came and knocked on my door saying she needed to talk about finances again. I opened the door to see if she would actually just talk about that.
Nope, first thing out of her mouth is "you sure made sure this isn't repairable"
I tried to stop her but she just tirades into how I need to leave, it's my fault the kids hate her, it's my fault we cant fix this, the judge will make me move out, etc. I again told her that I will not discuss anything with her if she is blaming me for this situation. I again told her that I do not want divorce, and cannot stop her, but I will not help her destroy this family completely.
WW then said "how could I sit and have dinner with your family now that they know this"
I told WW that just because her family is quick to try and choose sides and manipulate the kids, my family can see past the situation, they still love her and that they are there to support us and even just her, should she need it.
So in a nutshell, WW has made zero progress. WW is still in protect thyself mode and cant see beyond that.
I am leaving the house now. These one sided conversations are so draining and pointless. WW still thinks I'm out to get her.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
My first boundary was to not allow the tirades. As soon as my WW starts that I walk away and she has been told that she can't talk to me like that. It has worked with mine as she can throw some physical violence into it if I let her but I am getting dang good at self defense because her sequence of blows is repetitive. Right, left, right leg......that being said when I walk away and she calms down she usually is able to reason with her emotions better.
H-50 W-48 T-19 M -18 S23, S14 BD - 5/9/2018 OM discovered 5/10/2018
In house sep - 8/18/2018 Rope drop 2/15/2019 R'ing since 3/15/2019
I think what Torn was referring to is how many IC's are not pro-marriage and actually encourages the WW to do whatever is necessary in order to find her happiness out there. This is not what a WW needs to hear from a professional. She's not logical, and she will take those words and run with it, to break vows, ties/bonds, commitments, and relationships. She'll hurt whoever stands in her way. In the WW's mind, rather than hearing how she can work through her issues, she's hearing encouragement to continue living a wayward lifestyle. Since the WW already blames her H for all her unhappiness, one of the first things she'll do is break up the M. In her viewpoint, it takes care of her problem of unhappiness.
It's incredible to me (as someone who works in the field) how quickly people will tell you to just up and leave an unhealthy, dead-end relationship. It's almost like we as a society have put WAY too much emphasis on the importance of R for happiness, to the point that when someone is unhappy, it's the easiest target. [Don't even ask me how WW reacted when I said, "W, you say you were unhappy because of me. I say you were unhappy and I happened to be standing next to you."]
OK, ICs do have an ethical responsibility to provide the treatment (or advice) that is in the best interest of their client, as an individual human who may or may not be in a R. And there's risk involved in telling someone to stay in a R if there's a concern that they are being mistreated/abused. But ICs can only work with what they're given, i.e., what the WW is telling them, which is probably total garbage. Net result: fanning the flames. [Long before I knew about DB and WW, my W was saying things like, "IC has been teaching me to listen to my feelings." Barf.]
The point is, if WW can manipulate her H, she can certainly manipulate her IC.
H: 35 W: 33 M: 11 T: 13
4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1") 6/23/18: I moved out 8/31/18: MC ends ("BD2")
Remember that W also must go through a process herself. She needs to find herself too. Find the real W, the former one. What does she need? Time and space. It’s hard to achieve that on an in-house separation. Try to give her that. How? Get out and GAL. She started asking MR questions. It’s a step taken. So, control expectations and go GAL.
A marathon...remember? Breathe, breathe, keep the pace.
[Don't even ask me how WW reacted when I said, "W, you say you were unhappy because of me. I say you were unhappy and I happened to be standing next to you."]
Ok, now I want to know if you're open to sharing. I ask because that's how I feel of course, and I'm now hearing that I should definitely NOT say this to W.
What neffer said....I am living IHS and I said this is driving me nuts...so what did I do? I got out of the house every second I could after taking care of my fatherly duties. Don't wait around to see what W will be doing. I will be honest W has asked me to do more things lately and I have obliged at times. But the crazy thing is she demanded her independence for so long during these last 6 or 7 months and I fought it at first but now that I have been enjoying mine I see her pulling back in. I actually want her to be away more often!
I am so relieved that I have finally been able to detach. It is a huge weight off my shoulders and somewhat sad at the same time that I do not have the emotional bond with my W of 18 years anymore. But I am better off and you will be too, find yourself, push through.
H-50 W-48 T-19 M -18 S23, S14 BD - 5/9/2018 OM discovered 5/10/2018
In house sep - 8/18/2018 Rope drop 2/15/2019 R'ing since 3/15/2019
[Don't even ask me how WW reacted when I said, "W, you say you were unhappy because of me. I say you were unhappy and I happened to be standing next to you."]
Ok, now I want to know if you're open to sharing. I ask because that's how I feel of course, and I'm now hearing that I should definitely NOT say this to W.
I am very open to sharing. I'll jump over to your thread.
H: 35 W: 33 M: 11 T: 13
4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1") 6/23/18: I moved out 8/31/18: MC ends ("BD2")
OK, ICs do have an ethical responsibility to provide the treatment (or advice) that is in the best interest of their client, as an individual human who may or may not be in a R. And there's risk involved in telling someone to stay in a R if there's a concern that they are being mistreated/abused. But ICs can only work with what they're given, i.e., what the WW is telling them, which is probably total garbage. Net result: fanning the flames. [Long before I knew about DB and WW, my W was saying things like, "IC has been teaching me to listen to my feelings." Barf.]
The point is, if WW can manipulate her H, she can certainly manipulate her IC.
Agree with B
We go to IC to help ourselves. So W can manipulate IC but it’s IC job to get that out. And they do. So you give garbage to IC and IC will sometime in the process just take your garbage away. When that happens you start to conciously get into your real problems, the ground of your feelings. But you need time and commitment to accomplish that. It’s always easier to break away. But no matter how much you run your demons will be there with you. Mine lived inside my pillow, most of them are gone now, a few remain there. I must face them sooner or later.
