Still Lost pt3

[lost8]

I guess I should rephrase the DB techniques comment to say that will not impact her towards considering a R.

[burned]

I was just thinking about this because my WW wasn't always a selfish person. If anything she was NOT selfish enough. She had NGS toward me! (G=girl)

What I know about my WW, though, is the shame and the guilt stuff she has been dealing with her whole life plays a role. Some people feel so poorly about themselves that they seek external validation. When I stopped being her source of validation, she turned elsewhere. It was a survival thing. Funny, because AFTER BD it was all about me being the "desperate" and "clingy" person.

Then there's the guilt. I think THIS matters a lot. Rationalization, AFTER the fact.

WW self-talk: "Oops, I had an A. Oh no, this means I'm a terrible person! Oh NO, how will I ever live with myself? Wait a minute, if I had an A, it means that something was wrong. Yeah! My H wasn't a good H. That's probably why. If he was a good H I would have been happy with him and then not had the A. Whew, glad there was an explanation, otherwise I might have been unable to go on. OK, so that's what I'm going to tell people. Then they won't hate me as much as I hate myself. Oh, and I might as well tell myself the same thing, because then I won't hate myself, either. Oh and get rid of H because who wants to be reminded of that nonsense? He wasn't a good H, AND he thinks he can fix it, AND then people will think he's better than me, AND just seeing him reminds me of the horrible thing I did."

I dunno, something like that.

[lost8]

I agree burned....my WW too had issues from her teen age years where she was sexually abused and had repressed it her whole life as well as some other abusive relationships with friends and family, former husband. It did all come to a head earlier this year when she decided she would be a victim no more and began acting out in a childish/teenager mentality with no responsibility at all. I do see narcissistic tendencies however I believe it is the relief of all of the repressed pain with the validation that you mentioned that was no longer the same high when I did it after the 2 decades of M.

Little does she realize that her actions are only causing her new hurt to forget the old until it all resurfaces.

[Wanted1]

I was just thinking about this because my WW wasn't always a selfish person. If anything she was NOT selfish enough. She had NGS toward me! (G=girl)

What I know about my WW, though, is the shame and the guilt stuff she has been dealing with her whole life plays a role. Some people feel so poorly about themselves that they seek external validation. When I stopped being her source of validation, she turned elsewhere. It was a survival thing. Funny, because AFTER BD it was all about me being the "desperate" and "clingy" person.

Then there's the guilt. I think THIS matters a lot. Rationalization, AFTER the fact.

WW self-talk: "Oops, I had an A. Oh no, this means I'm a terrible person! Oh NO, how will I ever live with myself? Wait a minute, if I had an A, it means that something was wrong. Yeah! My H wasn't a good H. That's probably why. If he was a good H I would have been happy with him and then not had the A. Whew, glad there was an explanation, otherwise I might have been unable to go on. OK, so that's what I'm going to tell people. Then they won't hate me as much as I hate myself. Oh, and I might as well tell myself the same thing, because then I won't hate myself, either. Oh and get rid of H because who wants to be reminded of that nonsense? He wasn't a good H, AND he thinks he can fix it, AND then people will think he's better than me, AND just seeing him reminds me of the horrible thing I did."

I dunno, something like that.

burned, dude.... this seems spot on. Especially with my W in my sitch. After our joint session last week, my IC (who had only met my W for that 1 hour of session) told me on Monday during our session that she feels as though my W is still dealing with some intense self-guilt and shame. I wanted to believe her, because it made sense, and in fact, right after I found out about the A a month ago, that was W's initial mindset -- "All I do is hurt you." "I have never been with anyone who I haven't hurt." "I've actually thought it would be so much easier for everyone if I just wasn't on this earth anymore..." etc, etc.

My IC has said external validation seems to be something my W has felt she needs or has looked for. Sort of like her 'achilles heal.' My W has admitted as much to me as well. IC told me that can be caused by the sexual abuse my W experienced in her childhood. Plus, it is part of the description of a Type 3 personality under the Enneagram Test. For those of you who haven't read up on my sitch, my W experienced sexual abuse (along with her siblings) at a very young age by their biological father. W's Mom never explained what happened to any of them and they never received any counseling or therapy after the events. So, my W has gone 30 years always knowing kind of what happened but nothing more and has never dealt with any of it in a healthy manner (counseling/therapy). Earlier this year she started looking into what happened in the court files and its been a runaway train down hill since then. She's carried that burden for her entire life. While I can't imagine what its like and I truly feel bad for what she went through, there is still no excuse to handle it the way she has by betraying her H and family. I understand how it happened but that doesn't make it right.

So, your little synopsis of the thought process that WWs might go through could be spot freaking on. Not sure if that mindset is better or worse for the LBS (all of us), but it makes some sense!

Sorry for the hijack!

[Wanted1]

I agree burned....my WW too had issues from her teen age years where she was sexually abused and had repressed it her whole life as well as some other abusive relationships with friends and family, former husband. It did all come to a head earlier this year when she decided she would be a victim no more and began acting out in a childish/teenager mentality with no responsibility at all. I do see narcissistic tendencies however I believe it is the relief of all of the repressed pain with the validation that you mentioned that was no longer the same high when I did it after the 2 decades of M.

Little does she realize that her actions are only causing her new hurt to forget the old until it all resurfaces.

Lost,

Sorry to hijack your thread with my previous post, but after reading your reply to burned, your W and my W's experiences sound eerily similar. I feel for you, man, cuz I'm going through the exact same thing. I hope both of us can get through this.

Hopefully both our Ws can clear their heads before its too late for them! I'm trying like hell to save my M but it looks like the effort I've put forth in doing so will only give me the comfort in knowing, for myself, that I did everything I could. It takes two to R. Stay strong, brother. It's been a struggle for me on an hourly basis thus far.......

[burned]

Not sure that I'd call it a threadjack because it's an important topic that factors into a lot of these sitches, I think.

If I'm reading correctly you both have Ws who have suffered physical/sexual/emotional abuse in the past. This adds a layer of complexity to your sitches that doesn't really apply to me. Although you could argue that a strict upbringing by emotionally volatile parents is somewhere in that gray area between "normal" and "abusive." In that case, both my W and me are also in that boat.

We all seek external validation to some extent. What distinguishes the narcissist from a normal person (and I believe narcissistic personality disorder is WAY overdiagnosed these days) is the inflexibility and pervasiveness of how they operate. There's an element of EXPECTING others to validate them, and becoming angry and/or rejecting the other people if they don't comply. Of course it's way more complicated than that but that's sort of the line you have to cross before you start to call it a "disorder."

[lost8]

Nope I appreciate the dialogue. Yes our WWs have had similar experiences as teens and are just now dealing. Unfortunately the wrong way

[toenail]

I was just thinking about this because my WW wasn't always a selfish person. If anything she was NOT selfish enough. She had NGS toward me! (G=girl)

What I know about my WW, though, is the shame and the guilt stuff she has been dealing with her whole life plays a role. Some people feel so poorly about themselves that they seek external validation. When I stopped being her source of validation, she turned elsewhere. It was a survival thing. Funny, because AFTER BD it was all about me being the "desperate" and "clingy" person.

Then there's the guilt. I think THIS matters a lot. Rationalization, AFTER the fact.

WW self-talk: "Oops, I had an A. Oh no, this means I'm a terrible person! Oh NO, how will I ever live with myself? Wait a minute, if I had an A, it means that something was wrong. Yeah! My H wasn't a good H. That's probably why. If he was a good H I would have been happy with him and then not had the A. Whew, glad there was an explanation, otherwise I might have been unable to go on. OK, so that's what I'm going to tell people. Then they won't hate me as much as I hate myself. Oh, and I might as well tell myself the same thing, because then I won't hate myself, either. Oh and get rid of H because who wants to be reminded of that nonsense? He wasn't a good H, AND he thinks he can fix it, AND then people will think he's better than me, AND just seeing him reminds me of the horrible thing I did."

I dunno, something like that.

this is so my WW. thanks burned.

sorry for the hijack lost

[lost8]

Update from last night, had GAL planned and headed out. Wasn’t gone 15 minutes and WW texted after not hearing from her for nearly 48 hours. She touched base with S on way home and he told her I went out. Problem solved on out of town sporting event next week. She said...:let’s cancel I don’t want to go. I said ok what’s up? Her response was leave me alone.

When I got back home a few hours later she was trying to tell me about her new job venture. I listened for a little and went to bed.

Monday she said we scheduled this trip it will be fun I wanted to do this with you and paid for it all. Now leave me Alone, rolllercoaster ride for her, crazy as always. I’m actually relieved shouldn’t have scheduled in the first place.

[burned]

I said ok what’s up? Her response was leave me alone.

I wasn't there next to you so maybe that made sense in the moment, but for detachment I have found it helpful to just not even ask about how she feels. Hard, but necessary. Yes, I care. No, I don't need her to know that right now. Your W's reaction is pretty weird (though I'm not a WW expert) but maybe it reflects her feeling that you were pursuing by saying "what's up?"

When I got back home a few hours later she was trying to tell me about her new job venture. I listened for a little and went to bed.

"W, I appreciate your willingness to share. I had a busy day and I'm going to bed now."

I'm new here and certainly not setting the best example, but it's maybe a bit easier to see as an outside observer. My opinion, I get the need for validation but it seems like you need more detachment, less interaction. Go a bit darker. Seems like you lost your stride over the weekend. Get your stride back.