How a treehouse can cost you your marriage 2

[MoveFrwd]

I was surprised to see that she did not remove her ring and that she is still sleeping in the Mstr bed w/ me

I dont understand. You said she should be living in the apartment, and yet you are still OK with her sleeping in the same bed as you? Which is it?

This a.m. kicked off close to a 5 hour convo... I will summarize as much of it was painfully repetitive... why I allowed it to go on so long, I don't know - I went against the solid advice I have received here.

I wonder at what point you will stop having these circular discussions by yourself. You say it's 'hard work' to her and point out what needs to be done. So why arent you following that? Frankly, I think you are doing more harm than good right now going at this alone.

W: So we need to talk, I'm nearing the deadline for my apartment.
M: Sure, I'm all ears, do you have any new thoughts about the sitch?
W: I think we jumped into this too early.
M: I agree, so now that we are here what now?
W: I kinda think I should move back to my apartment.
M: It's probably for the best.
W: I worry about the kids, they are so much better off when we are together as a family, it's better for everyone, even me and you. I was severely depressed when I was living at my apartment, I missed my kids, I missed you, I missed the times we had.
M: Sorry to hear it was so rough for you, I could see that you were not happy. I agree about it being best for everyone, and I know that is a completely viable option, I told you what I am willing to do to make that possible, you are the one saying you can not do the necessary things that are crucial for our MR.

I feel like this was the perfect end to the conversation. You restated your boundary pretty clearly without really passing judgment or pursuing.

W: I will not live in the past....blah, blah, blah......
M: do you realize the TRO is the worst thing anyone has ever done to me in my life, and then to have it done by the person I love the most, I could not fathom doing that to you.
W: Look, I can't say sorry right now, I told you why... I will promise you that will not happen again. (I did sense some sincerity in this comment). I just have a real problem w/ how and why it was brought up.... (some more of the same convo hat transpired last time)
M: Look, I hope this is not taken the wrong way, I'm not saying you have issues or anything like that, but maybe it would help if you saw an IC, you mentioned you experienced depression at the apartment, you could also bounce some of the issues we are having off the IC and get another point of view.

And then it all kinda goes off the rails. What is the point of all this (and the rest)?

M: Look at this point I am at peace w/ the sitch, its not how I wanted it to go, but here we are. I don't know what else to say and don't know that discussing it anymore is going to help, kinda feel like we are just trying to prove who is right.

And this again is really good......until you allow yourself to get sucked back into a huge discussion.

She went back into how she feels sex is to much of a priority for me... a bunch more of the same convo, what was different though, was this time she blatantly tried to use sex as leverage.

W: So do you really think if we went to MC and dragged up the past that would be best for home life? Are we going to come home after the MC sesh's and be all lovey dove on one another, think its going to be a good environment for the kids.
M: I already said it is not going to be easy, but I can tell that by your current view of it that its likely not going to be effective at this point. That being said, if you wanted to go with the intention of strengthening our MR, it would do just that.
W: You realize that if we were to go that would be a big set back, do you think I'm going to want to have sex w/ you, it would probably be a good six months before that happened. Do you think I want to have sex w/ you right now - no its going to be a while, I'm starting to have those feelings again, that I do not want to be intimate w/ you after all this.
M: Really six months? Were did you come up w/ that time line? You don't think I see what is going on here, you are using sex as a method to control, were is the intimacy in that. And as long as we are talking about control, you have been very controlling over the last year, I'm not going along w/ it anymore. (I wanted to say abusive but know that would of ignited her, last year our MC said her comments/actions were abusive, she went off the handle... little more was mentioned about it for two reasons - Her reaction to the comment, and my pride. I am a big strong man, admitting that I am taking abuse does not fall in line w/ that... perhaps if I insisted on addressing it back then it would not of metastasized in to what it is today.

Curious as to what sex means to you. While this woman is in this state and clearly still rebellious, what are your thoughts on sleeping with her?

I feel that there is some block, maybe a sense of vulnerability, something that is getting in the way, from intimacy, communication, to remorse.

There is. Her waywardness and rebelliousness (if thats a word).

Of course it does not excuse her actions, but the way she is during the daytime along with the possible long term effects of her traumatic childhood reason enough for me to be more patient?

Even if she knows of her deficits they would not be called out - but now that they are should I give her time to come to terms w/ this, to self analyze and want to truly heal?

Id say when in doubt, ALWAYS lean towards patience.

What do you think about her stance on the TRO? Like you said she is being honest, and again, to yours and my mind set it is shocking that she thinks this could justified, and if not justified then rug swept. Now that she is in the know as to what it is going take for our MR to heal from it, should I give her time to come to honest terms w/ it?

I notice in your communication with and about her, there is a lot of "Im right and she is wrong" slant to it. For example, you call what she needs as "honest terms". But it isnt that....you said she is being honest with you and herself. What you want is her empathy and understanding of YOUR terms and YOUR needs. She says she wont do it again, but those are only words. Your expectation is for her actions to back those words up. Her willingness to resolve unresolved issues, her attentiveness to your needs....those are the kind of actions that will SHOW you that she means what she says. When the words dont match the actions, it tends to be the actions we believe.

Thats why Im questioning you on some things above. Your words to us seem legit. But you are allowing her to continue sleeping in bed with you, you continue to engage in long discussions about your boundaries, etc. What are your goals? Do your actions back up the process to achieve them?

[Vanilla]

Hi V,

Thanks again, your views have been very insightful and spot on as I reanalyze my sitch. When you mentioned what The G told you about being better off dead it really made me feel for you and realize how significant what you are doing just is... It can't be easy to re-live those events.

Thank you. Please remember these are my views,
Your sitch is unique to you and ultimately analysing it yourself is vital.

Since the last convo (the one I posted) w/ the W little happened until today. She made no mention of the sitch, was pretty cold for the most part.

I was surprised to see that she did not remove her ring and that she is still sleeping in the Mstr bed w/ me, (those were the first things to stop after initial BD.


She doesn't believe you. You engage with words.
Actions on boundaries are more important.

She made pancakes yesterday, S6 asked why she made so many, she said because we got...(named everybody in the house excluding me). I really think she expects me to pursue as I did during initial BD. I have made no mention of it, rather gave her space to digest the sitch and see I am serious in my stance.

Well she doesn't believe you until it happens.

This a.m. kicked off close to a 5 hour convo... I will summarize as much of it was painfully repetitive... why I allowed it to go on so long, I don't know - I went against the solid advice I have received here.

So why?

W: So we need to talk, I'm nearing the deadline for my apartment.
M: Sure, I'm all ears, do you have any new thoughts about the sitch?
W: I think we jumped into this too early.
M: I agree, so now that we are here what now?
W: I kinda think I should move back to my apartment.
M: It's probably for the best.

You are agreed.

W: I worry about the kids, they are so much better off when we are together as a family, it's better for everyone, even me and you. I was severely depressed when I was living at my apartment, I missed my kids, I missed you, I missed the times we had.

This is best for her.

M: Sorry to hear it was so rough for you, I could see that you were not happy. I agree about it being best for everyone, and I know that is a completely viable option, I told you what I am willing to do to make that possible, you are the one saying you can not do the necessary things that are crucial for our MR.

Really?

W: I will not live in the past....blah, blah, blah......
M: do you realize the TRO is the worst thing anyone has ever done to me in my life, and then to have it done by the person I love the most, I could not fathom doing that to you.
W: Look, I can't say sorry right now, I told you why... I will promise you that will not happen again. (I did sense some sincerity in this comment). I just have a real problem w/ how and why it was brought up.... (some more of the same convo hat transpired last time)
M: Look, I hope this is not taken the wrong way, I'm not saying you have issues or anything like that, but maybe it would help if you saw an IC, you mentioned you experienced depression at the apartment, you could also bounce some of the issues we are having off the IC and get another point of view.

No, her IC is hers. She is perfectly entitled to not atone and think it's ok. And you are entitled to your boundaries on it. How she handles herself is her responsibility. You can't control how she comes to her realisations on behaviour; any more than you can tell her to atone. The more you request it the more likely she is to dig in.

At this point I sensed that she was feeling that me still engaging in the convo was me pursuing as she said something to the likes of "Meanwhile I still don't feel comfortable and should probably move back to the apartment". I agreed. S6 comes out into the yard and ask for lunch. We got up to go make lunch and she made a remark of "Well that got us nowhere!"

that's because she was trying to control.
By engaging in this way not only do you weaken but you give the impression you want to control her remorse. Firstly you can't and secondly if you try this her defiant nature will mean she will be more convinced than ever her view is right. Set your boundary and allow W to absorb that instead of trying to control her reaction.

After lunch she said asked if we should continue the convo, I said sure - lets go back outside.

M: Look at this point I am at peace w/ the sitch, its not how I wanted it to go, but here we are. I don't know what else to say and don't know that discussing it anymore is going to help, kinda feel like we are just trying to prove who is right.

She went back into how she feels sex is to much of a priority for me... a bunch more of the same convo, what was different though, was this time she blatantly tried to use sex as leverage.

I suspect it's just absolutely clear to you as an emotional control tactic.

W: So do you really think if we went to MC and dragged up the past that would be best for home life? Are we going to come home after the MC sesh's and be all lovey dove on one another, think its going to be a good environment for the kids.

She is right MC is inappropriate. Both of you can have IC.


M: I already said it is not going to be easy, but I can tell that by your current view of it that its likely not going to be effective at this point. That being said, if you wanted to go with the intention of strengthening our MR, it would do just that.
W: You realize that if we were to go that would be a big set back, do you think I'm going to want to have sex w/ you, it would probably be a good six months before that happened. Do you think I want to have sex w/ you right now - no its going to be a while, I'm starting to have those feelings again, that I do not want to be intimate w/ you after all this.
M: Really six months? Were did you come up w/ that time line? You don't think I see what is going on here, you are using sex as a method to control, were is the intimacy in that. And as long as we are talking about control, you have been very controlling over the last year, I'm not going along w/ it anymore. (I wanted to say abusive but know that would of ignited her, last year our MC said her comments/actions were abusive, she went off the handle... little more was mentioned about it for two reasons - Her reaction to the comment, and my pride. I am a big strong man, admitting that I am taking abuse does not fall in line w/ that... perhaps if I insisted on addressing it back then it would not of metastasized in to what it is today.

this is too much I am right and you are wrong., labelling, mind reading and blaming by both of you.
It weakens the key stance and boundaries. Poor emotional development by both of you. Can I suggest you spend some effort on looking at thinking errors? Identifying your own thinking errors in your convo will help you in the long term,

As I rehash todays convo I have some mixed emotions.

She admitted to being depressed "at the apartment", at the time of BD and since I have wondered if she was not battling w/ this or some other psychological/hormonal issues. I feel bad for her, I have had some minor bouts with depression and know the effects it can have. Should I be more patient, soften my stance?

hold your boundary. Stop blaming, labelling and controlling.

Last year our MC said she has severe Daddy issues, I never mentioned this as I feared that she might someday find these post. It was the comment about the Daddy issues along w/ labeling the abuse that I feel really shut her down to the idea of MC, I echoed the comment in the heat of the moment one night, it was severely damaging to the state of our M.

That is pretty awful MC. MC of the most damaging kind. Labelling etc is the worst sort of MC. Do not use MC who do this sort of MC. The MC itself damaged your view of each other.


Anyhow, the reason I bring it up now is this:

I truly believe this woman really loves me, (yes I had thought she lost that feeling during the TRO and through out the separation - heck, she came out and said it during BD). I feel that there is some block, maybe a sense of vulnerability, something that is getting in the way, from intimacy, communication, to remorse. Obviously the TRO/remorse matter is detrimental to our MR, we have severe communication issues, she has become abusive over the past 18 months (she was NEVER like that before), all that aside for a moment... our time together since we reconciled has been terrific, I feel she is genuinely happy, its almost like she can not get enough of me during the day. She commutes 30 minutes to/from work, when she gets of work she calls me right away and we talk the entire time it takes her to get home. We kiss several times through out the day, she is very affectionate towards me, at one point in a previous post I said she was putting in effort, but I don't think it was as much effort as it is just natural. Does all this factor in? Of course it does not excuse her actions, but the way she is during the daytime along with the possible long term effects of her traumatic childhood reason enough for me to be more patient? Obviously if she refuses to get help there is little I can do for her, but she surprisingly and obviously thought she had done no wrong, that she would not be held accountable, that even if she knows of her deficits they would not be called out - but now that they are should I give her time to come to terms w/ this, to self analyze and want to truly heal?

You are rationalising her behaviour. What you say and what you do needs to be consistent.

You can never control another and frankly it's not good to try.
It is W responsibility for herself. It isn't yours to determine how she resolves her issues. FOO of this kind needs a great deal of personal IC not MC. And that is her path. She may be perfectly comfortable with certain aspects of herself.

What do you think about her stance on the TRO? Like you said she is being honest, and again, to yours and my mind set it is shocking that she thinks this could justified, and if not justified then rug swept.

I have no views on it. Making false allegations is a criminal offence. It shows antisocial behaviour and in many circumstances could have her imprisoned. If for example she did this to a neighbour then she would be before a judge and have legal actions against her for damages. That isn't opinion, it's the law. And W hasn't faced the consequences of the enormity of her actions. This is high risk. Antisocial behaviour like this is high risk.


Now that she is in the know as to what it is going take for our MR to heal from it, should I give her time to come to honest terms w/ it? Like I said I think her response of " I promise it will not happen again" was sincere. Should I tell her something like "Look, you can stay but we are going to have address this (along w/ everything else), and if you can not see my point of view by talking to me about it or reflecting on it, then you should talk to an IC about it."

so you will live like this? With anti social behaviour, abuse, lack of a sex life, with a cold W who wants to live as she pleases?

I feel like I can DB the communication issues, the intimacy issues, (MC would improve the chances of success) it is my view that MC will make this worse not better so I disagree with you and MC hasn't heed so far. W doesn't want MC either and in this I agree with her. You both have much to do on yourselves. and obviously if those were the only issues I would not be asking her to move out.

As far as the abuse goes, like you said "Now I know", and with the resources you have posted and directly lent to my sitch I can clearly recognize it, and I plan to have zero tolerance for it, and since it has not been though out/ since it is something that developed over the past few years, I'm hoping she is not to set in these ways.

That is her choice not yours. There is enough for you to do for you.

I know you will give to me straight V, these are the things going through my head and this is such a huge step (demanding she move out), that my mind is going a thousand miles a minute.

-------------------
I don't know how much it matters, but I'm going to add:

When the W said "I was severely depressed when I was living at my apartment, I missed my kids, I missed you, I missed the times we had." It was the FIRST TIME I ever saw her get emotional and teary eyed throughout our ENTIRE sitch.

Exactly. This is all about W, because to be alone she has to face herself. IC is to be encouraged, not demanded. There are posts here on MC and when MC is damaging in an R. MC is most useful when both parties wish to improve their R and without an agenda to 'prove' W has daddy issues or anything else nor to prove one party is abusing another. I would like you to consider my view that MC would be damaging.

All you can do is create an environment in which change is possible, no one can create shift in another.


-------------------------------

There is much work to do for you. Personal growth and learning about boundaries.

My best resource on this is Al Turtle (real name) who writes superbly well on boundaries for teenagers. It was his work which enabled me to understand and learn to set boundaries. Those who have been abused often react back with reactive abuse and control. Set your boundary and enforce it.

No doubt others will add their thoughts.

And even though your cross control is a way of setting boundaries (inappropriately in my view) the actions of W on the TRO are not reduced by any action of yours. She chose to lie to the police, she chose to see you arrested, she chose to see you before the law. Her choices and although she says it wouldn't happen again, once is enough.

I look forward to the day when you have directed anger to improve your sitch. When you turn around and say W what you do is your responsibility, and I will not have this risk in my life. Now W what are you going to do to put this right?

V

[Vanilla]

A has also made an insightful post.

You now have two reasoned views, which are different and that you can compare and contrast.

V

[AnotherStander]

I notice in your communication with and about her, there is a lot of "Im right and she is wrong" slant to it.

This is exactly my take as well. Clyde, Michele says in one of her books that only a small percentage of marital arguments ever get resolved. I wish I could remember, I think it was 10% or something like that. 90% (or whatever the number) NEVER get resolved. Do you know what successful marriage is? It's not resolving arguments, it's learning to LET GO. You have got to LET GO of your need to be right, and your need for her to admit she was wrong. Have you forgotten the pages and pages of discussions we had on how you ended up here in the first place, all of the things YOU did wrong in the M? Have you forgotten how bad you wanted your W back, and now that she's back YOU want to berate her over every little thing and kick her out of the house? 25 always says to keep the way home paved and smooth, but when they're back that MUST continue. You can't start digging potholes and felling trees in front of her and expect her to still motor down the road of recovery. You put obstacles in front of her then what is she going to do? Stop or turn around.

I can't remember if this is in one of Michele's books or something I read one of the old timers here say but it is a phrase I try to keep in the front of my mind when my GF and I are having trouble- Do you want to be right or do you want to be happily married? Wise, wise words. We rarely get both. Strong marriage consists of peaceful compromise.

What are your goals? Do your actions back up the process to achieve them?

Yes, exactly. Excellent advice. Clyde, ask yourself what your goals are. Then ask yourself "is what I am about to say/do getting me closer to my goals or farther away?"

By the way you pushing your W out the door and back to the apt. is very controlling, manipulative behavior. If you think she should go then talk to her about that, but it should be HER decision. You should SUPPORT her decision no matter what it is.

[Vanilla]

Clyde

How are you?

I was thinking about how tough this phase is on posters in abuse sitches.

How hard it is to break away, to get peace.

I am also aware of trauma bonding.


It is my view that asking the person who is abusing you to leave is 100% on point. However that is achieved in whichever way you say it. It will save your sanity and probably your health.

It is a long journey you are beginning.

Please let us know how you are.

V

[Clyde]

Hello A, AS, & V, G1, G,

Again thanks for taking the time to lend your support and views. Between them and my own accesment of the sitch I have come up w/ a game plan that will hopefully cease the backsliding, unnecessary arguments, and abusive conditions that are sabotaging our MR.

First an update:

Much stayed the same for a few days, w/ the looming expiration of her lease, pressure built. My take on the sitch was that she thought I would cave to her terms and tell her to stay, this did not happen, she asked to talk about the sitch several times but did not change her stance at all. I tried my best to avoid pointless convos.

A few days ago she approached me w/ the notion, "We stay together for the kids sake, and because neither of us can afford to live separated". I delicately made the point that I was surviving financially w/out her (I don't know if she even picked up on that point). I made clear that while staying together for the kids was noble, I feel like there is no way that would work and in turn hurt the kids more than separating as there would surly be many more arguments, cold feelings etc. If we were to stay together it would have to be on the premiss that we both want and believe in our MR and one another. I told her that I would not stay in the MR solely for the kids.

I told her that I was wrong in demanding that we go to MC, or that she go to IC... I told her there is no way MC could be remotely effective at this point, and that IC has been a big help for me in seeing things from a different stand point, and that maybe it is something she should consider if and when she ever felt comfortable w/ it. She mentioned she talked to some of her friends about our sitch and that they agreed w/ her.

This is were I know many of you would say I should of shut my mouth, (and maybe I should have, as you will read there was definitely a danger in not doing so - but in the end I feel like it may have pushed things to a head/sowed a positive effect).

M: That says nothing, your friends are facilitators, like someone who gives an addict money for drugs... So you mean to tell me that you told your friends, and they agreed with your approach of when you came to me and said "I gonna need $xxxx" you did not ask if I had the x-tra $, the way you presented it really was not asking, it seemed more like an entitled demand to me, and then when I tried to talk to you about it you shut me down.
W: Well what did you want me to do, ask my family... how would that make you look, I moved back in w/ you and I am asking them for $!!!
M: I don't care how it would make me look, and that is besides the point - it is all about how you presented it to me... but since we are going there... you are the one who caused me to rack up more than 10k in lawyer fees, you are the one who demanded money we did not have to move out, you are the one who only works 20 hours a week... maybe that is what you should tell your family!!!
W: I told you when we were talking about getting back together that I did not want to rely on you for money!!
M: So that justifies the $h!tty way you asked for it?

At that point she lost it (possibly hit rock bottom), she started gritting her teeth at me, raised both hands like a panther ready to claw and was screaming at me. I put my hands in my pocket, backed up and sat in a chair. She went into the bathroom and ws crying for 5 - 10 minutes and then left.

At that point it was clear that I needed to drop the rope. I proceeded w/ my day, accepted the state of things. She came home a few hours later, I was in the shop working when she text me "I'm going up to talk w/ Mary" (Mary is not her real name).

This I feel was a tremendous breakthrough, my W was finally willing to seek advice outside her core circle of friends. Mary is a neighbor and an older woman who became somewhat of a Mother figure to my W over the last 16 years. She is an elder in our church, and while Mary was always much closer w/ my W than she was w/ me, she is someone who I feel has a lot of wisdom to share with those who will listen. Once my W BD'd, Mary was cut out of her life, Mary reached out to her time and time again but the W never responded. During the initial separation I would try to encourage the W to go and talk to Mary but she would refuse, saying something like "I already know what she is going to say, do you really think I want to hear it?"

I have no idea what they discussed for close to 4 hours, but when my W came home I could see she was in a different disposition.

W: I spoke W/ Mary, she agrees that living in the past is somewhat of a danger at this point in our MR, we should focus on making new memories. Reliving what went wrong is only going to open old wounds, create resentment.
M: I agree, it would be stupid to relive our past, however if an unresolved issue is starting to rear its head again, we should be secure enough to talk about it, the effects it had, and what we did or did not do last time that did not help resolve it.
W: You mentioned that you had discussed the TRO w/ your IC three weeks ago, I feel like it was stewing.
M: I'm glad you brought that up, did you see any difference in my disposition over the last few weeks?
W: No, but that does not mean that it was not stewing
M: I talked w/ the IC, I choose not to bring it up, rather "live in the moment - make new memories" as you put it. The other night when I tried to have a simple convo about sex, you did not even let me finish my sentence, you yelled at me and said I was going to ruin a good thing... reminded me of pre TRO days, so I brought it up. And that is exactly what I meant earlier when I said we need to be secure enough to talk about certain issues. If this is going to work I need you to understand the impact all that had on me, the other day when you left the house, I had to wonder..."Great, is she going to go do that again?"
W: I get it, and I am sorry, I said I am sorry for the whole thing.

In hindsight I should have thanked her for her apology at this point, don't know why I did not, perhaps I was to busy looking down at the rope laying there that I had dropped just a few hours before... battling w/ the notion of picking it up.

W: So what now?
M: You know I want this MR to work I've said it enough times. That being said, I will not have any part of a MR where there are lines drawn in the sand, were bringing up certain issues are a threat of "ruining" our MR, were sex is used as a control method, or were the only reason we stay together is for the kids.
W: Its going to take a lot of patience and understanding from both of us. It has been really good since we got back together, lets try to keep our focus on making new memories, building what we had back up.

Not much more was said after that. We went to bed 20 minutes later, She told me ILY and gave me a goodnight kiss. The last few days have not been has passionate as they were before the argument, but seem to be on there way there.

Going forward (Clyde's part):
- Don''t engage in pointless arguments.
- Patience.
- Remind myself when necessary the wisdom that another poster once shared w/ me "MORAL VICTORIES ARE NOT VICTORIES".
- Absolutely ZERO TOLERANCE for any type of abusive comments/actions. When they happen I will stop right there and call them for what they are:
If it is a hateful comment, my response will be "You are being hateful" - End of Discussion (EOD).
If it is manipulative, my response will be "You being manipulative, you need to stop" - EOD
And so forth...
- Continue to grow as a H, continue to give serious thought and to and address the issues that I contributed to the state of our MR... become the man only a fool would leave.
- Continue to grow as a father, provide the necessary security for my kids no matter what the outcome of my MR is. To make sure I am ceasing every opportunity to make these kids days brighter, to fill their heads w/ as many happy memories as possible.
- To understand the necessity and find the balance of taking care of Clyde.

I'm sure much of my plan going forward sounds like a no brainer, I'm really curios of what your guys take is going to be on how to deal with the abusive comments/actions.

Sorry I dropped off the map for a few days - thanks for your concern. It is hard to post these days and not let the W see what I am up too.

[Vanilla]

I am still a little confused by your actions but it's always your choice.

I will tackle one obvious thing

Labelling

One word don't!

You are being cold, manipulative etc is mind reading and labeling.

Instead express yourself as you thoughts, I feel disconnected from you right now. I think i might be being manipulated.

Don't

Label even for 'nice' things

You are improved

You are much happier.....

Invalidates the other.

V

[joejoe1]

Clyde,

How it going buddy? Update please.