I'll wager she walks by often. I think the only thing that saves us from more drive-bys is the distance. I see it like a magnet, the parts that pull them to us and the parts that push them away. I think the strength of the attraction/repulsion change over time during the crisis.
I'm glad for you that you have been spared a lot of the monster spew. I think it is because it went down so quickly and you don't do things to engage the monster. I'm still learning, still working. For the last 9 months or so it is only the pokes that I have sometimes fallen for. I have not been the one initiating. When I've had to deal with business (very rarely) I've gone the most direct and least-emotion laden and it has helped. It just gets hard because when you ignore the pokes they tend to get meaner (at least in my case).
I still struggle to really understand my w and her pain
Maybe that is why I struggle with the forgiveness too
And I love you response to son
He does have a kick a mother
You rock
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Thank you Gordie and DnJ, for your kind words and your support.
I am seeing some things going on with the boards here and other boards I follow. I think I am too direct in my approach and can hurt feelings when I legitimately try to help folks. I've decided to make some comments here for whomever might see them and benefit them. I'm going to start here with the personal observations and insight into my situation and then hopefully follow up with some legal thoughts in a second post.
Since I asked my H to leave, I have endeavored to follow DB. I had read the books in the dance leading up to the big bomb drop (the revelation of the first PA and the first legitimate demand that we divorce). I have endeavored to give him space since that time, let him be the one to contact me (haven't always succeeded), I haven't talked to his friends or family or posted passive aggressive comments on FB. I have not used my children as messengers and have tried to politely rebuff his efforts to do the same. Mine is a cold, cold fish. He can monster and spew with the best of him, but he hurts me through his coldness and his distance (in the waning days of the marriage I had told him how much this hurts me).
We have probably had no more than 3 text/email battles and maybe 3 terse phone calls early on. I have rarely told him what I thought about him or what he is doing, and even when I have it has been mainly factual. I don't talk about his women at all. The few difficult conversations we have had were early on (save one at tax time). His monster has appeared when I have told him the kids were hurting (or hurting themselves) or failing, etc. Any time I said anything that could possibly induce guilt in him. Many times I wasn't even aware that he was reading guilt into the situation until I thought about it later. He has said some of the most vile things I have heard expressed. I have largely continued to DB through it.
I have seen some folks who still carry very bitter grudges even years and years after separation and divorce. Everyone is different, everyone has to respond in the way they are able. For myself, inducing guilt, or being mean or cruel is not something I want to do for me. It is not the kind of person I want to be. I do not say the nasty things I think about him aloud. I say them in my head or I write an email to myself and then delete later when I feel better. I think there is something wrong with him. While I do believe there is free will at play and he has some control, there is something there that feels out of control and unbalanced. No matter what it is, he doesn't feel like he is in his right mind to me.
Some of them are very narcissistic and cruel and you really want to respond with rage and how they are treating you. But if they are really narcissists or other cluster B's (the types of disorder to which narcissists and borderlines belong), then you just bring them supply. Supply is like love or attention. It is something they feel they must have or they will die. Therefore, when life with the affair partner gets dull, they come start stuff with you to get it. Guess what, if you keep responding to it and showing your feelings (good or bad) they will keep coming back to get it. If you are really tired of them messing with you and injecting themselves into your life, then just stop responding. If they poke you or mess with you (and mine does frequently) just ignore it. They will ramp it up (mine has anyway) but just keep ignoring it. I have three areas where I will respond with the toughest legal measures possible, which I will discuss more later (they are messing with my kids in any way, messing with the support I receive, or messing with my health insurance). Anything else I try to let go. It is not worth continuing my part of the dance to keep responding.
If they are still bothering you 3, 5, or 10 years down the line, it is because you are letting them. You are playing your part of the dance. If you did not respond and give them supply, they would move on to someone who will.
I also see instances where they do try to reach out to the kids in some manner that at least as reported here, seems reasonable. I think there is so much pain that the LBS will often assume the very worst and just look at it as the next round of the fight. I try to take each salvo on its own merit and instead of reacting from defcon two where I was the last time it ended, I try to reset myself to five and to de-escalate the situation. If he is clearly still entrenched from the last battle, then I adjust accordingly.
I think sometimes we are so mired in our own script that they will never change, nothing will ever improve, and we fail to see that we are responding in the exact same way every time and ensuring the same outcome. I have seen threads where people report the conversation and it looks to me like the WA/WW is trying to take it to a different place but the LBS is so entrenched that they just aren't seeing it. All they see is their rage and their hurt. It will never change until at least one of you makes the change.
I may not have all of this figured out, I am still stuck, but I get a check every month and have every month this has been going on, I have health insurance, my children are doing well, I haven't spent much on legal fees (yet), and my MLCer more or less leaves me alone. For me the issue is limbo, but that is another topic.
Think about what I've said, or don't. Argue with me, ignore me, whatever. But understand I come from a place of compassion and I want to try to help others to the best of my ability.
Ok, now for the legal side. First a disclaimer. I am a US lawyer (with no knowledge of international law) and am licensed in four states (but probably not yours). I don't practice family law (although I did some work in family law early in my career). It would be malpractice for me to give you legal advice if you are in my state and I haven't met with you and gone over all the particulars of your case with you before dispensing advice. It would be practicing law without a license for me to give you advice if I am not licensed in your state. However, I'm going to respond to some things I have seen going on here and on other boards. Keep in mind, even if not expressly stated and repeated each time, my first comment to you is to seek an attorney who practices in family law where you live and can give you appropriate advice based on your facts and the legal issues and local practices affecting your case.
1. Please, talk to an attorney. Family law varies by state, it is not a national practice. Family law is concerned, when there are children involved, with the best interest of the children. This is a fact-specific inquiry. Each case is different. Each court has its own local rules that it follows. I am an attorney, but I have an attorney. I've read every statute and case affecting my situation, but I still need to discuss how local courts will apply these things. I had to prepare and file a motion in my case. I read all the statutes and the black letter law, but I had my attorney help me add things the court would want to see and remove things they would not.
2. I am more fortunate than most in that I have the means, at the present (remember things can always change for any of us), to pay my attorney. I also have the ability to do a lot of the work myself to keep costs down. Those are a given, but even those of you with limited means may have situations that absolutely require that you at least consult with an attorney or have them review your agreements. Those situations are things like custody disputes, property (real estate, inheritance, pension/retirement plans, automobiles, household goods, you name it), and safety issues (stalking, protective orders, etc.).
3. If you and your spouse have limited means and no kids and no property and haven't been married long, contact your local courthouse. They may have a clinic or a statutory framework for a simple divorce.
4. If you are living within 150% of the federal poverty guidelines (which you can google), you can likely get some kind of legal aid to help you. Check with the court, call your local legal aid offices, etc.
5. Many areas will have pro se clinics (this just means you are representing yourself) that will walk you through the process. Legal aid clinics will often also have those.
6. If you do not have a simple case and cannot afford an attorney, then scrape together what you can and at least consult with them as often as you need to. I am not advocating employment for my family law brethren here. I am trying to bring home that this is not something you can do without guidance. If you have property in dispute, then you must, must, must speak with an attorney to ensure that you are adequately protecting your interests.
7. Family law is not like regular civil matters. If someone sued me for another kind of case, no big deal, I can represent myself. Family law is different and you must speak with someone who not only knows the laws but understands how the local courts will interpret them.
8. Many states are no fault. They don't care how many times your spouse cheated or that you put the toilet paper on the wrong way. Affairs are generally not relevant (but I do know of at least one state that is no fault where bad conduct may be a basis for an unequal distribution of property, so ask your lawyer) and you sound like a lunatic if you keep talking about them.
9. If you have a mentally disordered spouse read the book Splitting. It talks about how courts don't like it when you come in and talk about your mentally ill spouse (whom you and your counselor have diagnosed). Talk about the behaviors and how they affect the kids and leave the diagnoses out unless they have been diagnosed by someone who has actually met with them.
10. Most of the jurisdictions I am aware of will give joint custody unless the other parent has harmed the child. Therefore, your belief that your spouse isn't a good parent is not enough. Yes, they will give some custody to parents with problems. In my state I can ask for a deviation based on certain factors which are expressly enumerated by statute. These include things like diagnosed and documented mental illness, diagnosed and documented drug tests, abandonment, certain criminal acts, an abusive use of the court system, etc. Unless you have something pretty egregious you will not get sole custody with no visitation and asking for it can make you look unreasonable. Again, talk to an attorney about your situation.
11. If your spouse has documented problems, think about requesting drug testing, review of mental health or physical records, etc. In my state, anything goes. I can get any information as long as it has some relationship to money or the kids. But, if I send discovery requests on everything, I'm going to get them back asking the same things for me, I'm going to spend a lot of money (discovery is one of the most expensive parts of a case), and I may learn things I can't unlearn about my spouse if I have any hope of reconciliation in the future.
12. Why would you want to keep your child from the other spouse? Your relationship with them is not the same as their relationship with the kids. Even the children of convicted murderers pine for their parents. Your children will forgive them for breaking up the family and leaving. They may not forgive you for trying to keep the other parent away or for badmouthing. No matter how wronged you feel or how much you dislike them right now, they are your child's parent, your child loves them (even if they say they don't), and you don't want to harm your child.
13. States differ in how they handle parties living together in divorce. If the situation is bad, you may be able to request a kick out order. Talk to your lawyer.
14. There is a prescribed flow for how these cases go and the order in which things happen. A lawyer can explain the process to you and when and where certain issues get raised. Remember to that you are creating a public record that can be accessed by others, including your children later on. I recently talked to someone whose parents divorced when she was young. She said they would ask her questions, which would then turn up in pleadings and the other parent would get mad. To this day she doesn't trust either of them because of this. Don't put your children in the middle, ever, in any way.
15. I think judges in family law cases are used to seeing unrepresented parties; more so than other areas of the law. If you have to do it, you have to do it. Read up on the practice. Read the statutes. Consult with an attorney as often as you can.
Agree with Bttrfly. Thank you so much all you contribute to the board, OneArt.
The legal aspect of this has been the most surprising. As an upright citizen, I’ve always been afraid of doing anything wrong, unjust or illegal. I abide by the rules and I take them seriously... my ex... not so much. I’ve been really surprised by how much he has “gotten away with.” There seems to be no repercussions for bad behavior (lies, withholding info, not abiding by the financial restraining orders) when it comes to family law in CA. I’m in the middle of my sitch.... so hopefully my opinion changes when we reach the end.
Thank you, again, for your contributions.
Me- 30's H- 40's T-10 M-5 I moved out b/c he wanted space- June 15 D filed by H: September 16
I hear you Pax. Until this began, my exposure to the legal system was always on behalf of others. Quite different when it is you. The frustrating part for me is how much mine can delay and the fact that I really can't do anything about it. In truth, I've seen courts let people get away with a lot of really bad stuff. Even in my practice area where an award of fees is statutory, the courts still don't grant them. At some point there can be a tipping point. I have gotten sanctions against the other side in many cases, including attorney fees. It just takes time and lots of violations. All of this is a lesson in patience. You will get to the finish line, as will I, but we don't control the timing of that.
Pax I think my w just thought the law did not apply to her
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Trial separation starts next week. We are still good friends, but I know that can change. Anyway, if down the line we do split for good, I would like to explore mediation. Anyone know how this works? Do we each need separate attorneys and then a 3rd one for the mediation? i'm in a no fault state, we have assets, property, and 2 adult kids (in college). If there are links on this site that addressed this, that would be great too.
