I'm told I'm locked so I'll just add my last post from my last thread.
Also lots of R talk going on...with no end in sight. Again, W's tank is completely empty and she just wants to move on. We're bot VERY tired.
Saturday April 26, 2004: Some evening journaling...and as always, thanks for suggestions.
This is a long term project. Period. As a WAW posted elsewhere, instead of calling our WAW's crazy aliens, we should also think of our actions that put their hearts into deep freeze. And my W's heart is buried in the tundra. The only way it can melt to improve the M is if it generates heat from within. My trick is to thaw it just enough to have hope that the internal heater will start working--if ever. And my thawing process for her heart must be slow and gradual--applying the heat too much can result in irreparable damage. And applying cold doesn't work much either.
Last night was very interesting. We had misunderstanding over dinner with W and several girls who were sleeping over for D6's ongoing B-day celebration--a typical sitch where I'm lacksadaisical in my decision making and W misinterprets my actions.
In any event, with eight girls in my living room and D's 6 and 8 fighting--W came into our bedroom having enough and lashed into me about the misery of her life. I took a page from Seattle and planted a hard kiss on her lips.
W: What was that? In 14 years, when have you ever tried to comfort me? I feel nothing.
I kissed her again.
W: Started breaking down and cry. You never did that. You expect me to say that I feel something now when I feel absolutely nothing for you. (She then said some very cruel things relating to how she hated having sex with me and that the kids only saw me as someone who set unfriendly rules for them in the house).
I disagreed with at least half of what she said, but I just validated her FEELINGS as she continued crying saying, "It was too late. We just failed to build."
I rubbed her back a few times before she told me to stop. She said she had so much to offer and I rejetced it for 14 years and now it is time to allow her to seek her happiness her own way. She said she understood how I probably felt that I did not deserve what was happening, but neither did she--it was just what the way things were.
Again, I just validated as best I could. I thought I had pushed the emotions as far as I could on one night--and backed out to sleep in S9's room because he was sleeping at his cousin's.
This morning and today, W was back to ornery self and feeling miserable about her "phony" life. But I stayed leevl and eventually we all went to NYC to see the Queen Mary II (Quite a ship)! There was not much of a change in W's attitude, but I remained friendly and courteous and just tried to act normal. I never bit even slighly on any of her crap. Indeed as a funny aside, she (wrongly) questioned something I was doing on the commuter train regarding our fares--and the conductor corrected her and says to me loud enough for W to hear--"My W does that to me all the time!"
Not much going tonight, but when I said goodniight to W before coming to the computer, I got a sincere goodnight in return--something I usually don't get. Not much, but a better way to end the day.
Betsey recently remarked to others that the worst thing you can do is ignore a woman who wants attention. I really want to give W what she needs and will try hard. And DB Coach Laurie says just be her friend. And folks, before I finish I wil tell you this much--accept it or not: my acceptance of Christ and His compassion has done more for me as caring human being in three months than I accumulated in a lifetime of selective compassion. Even if my M fails--I will have achieved a victory in life.
This might be a good point, just to thank her. Offer no more options, alternatives, solutions, course of direction. She already knows where you stand on that and she has made it clear where she stands ... but have you ever thank her sincerely for the part she played in who you are today. Think about it ... if she hadn't made taken the course of action that had lead you here, would have made the amount of progress towards improving yourself that you have by buying into the DBing principals and applying them to yourself?
This is not off the cuff. At a time when W was displaying alot of anger towards me (altho not at the level of persistance yours seems to have taken it and is holding onto it), I did thank her. I kept it short, but felt I should let her know that no matter what road we go down that I felt a debt of gratitude for forcing me to face myself in the mirror, because that has allowed me to make the changes that will change my life for the better. I don't care if she doesn't if she believes if it is all a bunch of hooey or not. I will continue to act in a way that I feel good about. I just wanted to share that she played a part in my turn around to feel better about myself and I just want to say "Thank you for that."
She mulled it over for a while and afterwards her confrontation attitude towards me began to ease.
I just wanted to stop in to offer my thanks for your advice to me as well as my support for your sitch. It seems like you are really working hard in a positive direction and I certainly respect and admire that. I've learned so much from others here on the board and I appreciate you continuing to add information so that others (like me) might learn from it.
I also really like KAW's advice about thanking her for allowing you the opportunity to work on yourself. It is true that if these situations hadn't happened we never would have learned about ourselves as quickly as we are now.
I need to do some journaling and this will be last my post of the workday--I may look at lunch, but sadly, this BB is becoming too much of a focus for me during work and I need to get a break and make sure I can fulfill my daily work obligations. I'll try to get a glance at night if I'm up to it.
After two backslides, I may have "over-Seattled" this weekend. Yesterday, after doing the kids thing with baseball and dance recital, I got into a tiff with S9 and made the DB errors of saying 1) my problems with S9 were due to her lack of discipline instilled in the kids; and 2) in response to her "I'm gonna crack" if you continue living here mantra, I told her you've been saying you'll crack for 10 years and it hasn't happened yet.
This led to a 1 1/2 hour spirited convo where W talked about how excellent she has been as a mother and how sorry that she feels the way she does--but that's the way it is. This was not a validation discussion--but the supposed give and take that W has been seeking from me on how I feel.
Once again, I tried the Seattle approach and kissed her passionately on the lips and touched her. She once again asked where all this emotion came from, where has it been, but also said that this is what I always did (touch/physical) and it wasn't enough. I said I know now it wasn't enough, but it was the way I tried to say ILY.
We broke for dinner, and after, W said she figured out why I was so "kissy" this weekend, because I needed it bad. She said if I needed "servicing," she might oblige. I said (per KAW--but truly heartfelt), I would be lying if I said I didn't want to make love to you--I do. But I don't just want to f*** you; that would be empty and I want to feel the emotion just as she does.
W started to breakdown a bit and cried heavily about how sad and miserable she felt about the phoniness of our M was and how we hid it from eevryone. That we had nothing. How she was now 40 years old and has nothing. How she longed to be kissed by someone who she wanted to kiss back. (UGH!!!) How she wanted other relationships with both men and women and how we can be in a better place if I just acknowledged our M was a failure and just let go. She said the real problem was that she hid how miserable she was from everyone else and since they did not see her pain, they don't see it as a problem to suck it up some more. She said my being nice was not going to chnage the underlying lack of love and a foundation for going forward. She asked how long I was going to keep her and the kids in this place.
I kept thinking to myself, "Just be her friend. Just be her friend." So I said what an extraordinary burden she must have carried. I also said that despite our disagreement on issues with the kids (I couldn't sweep my earlier comments under the rug), I knew she was a good mother and never questioned leaving them with her--knowing that no one else in this world would love and take care of them the way she did. I then needed to tend to the kids, but before leaving, I kissed her twice on the head and said, These kisses are not because I want to make love--but just as a friend. That was really it for the night as she went to bed early simply exhausted.
This morning, she revived the "better place" argument if I left and said her only alternative was to take meds and be a zombie--which would be bad for the kids.
I think for the remainder of the week, it's time to back off andlet all of this weekend's emotion sink in. Right now, she clearly FEELS no love for me--and little can change that. One day at a time.
I felt compelled to respond to your post. From similar experiences and what I've read on the boards, it isn't uncommon for negativity to actually increase when they are feeling attention, love and the stuff that they felt was missing before, now in the here and present. What sometimes takes some time to realize is their complaints, are they about the past or about the present? They have to look in the mirror for that one.
IMHO hugs might be less threatening and convey more friendship and care first, rather than a kiss. Kissing to me would be the next step on the road to intimacy. Kisses on the forehead are nice, but I've noticed the power of a hug is huge. Even no words, just a hug. Kissing carries a whole different set of implications, like sex and intimacy and those are the next step of questions. I think you did good though, but maybe lay off on the kissing. Remember don't believe anything they say and be their friend first. Women can get sex and kissing from anywhere, sad but true, good friends are rare. This is confusing stuff. Any opinions? Especially from the ladies?
I agree this is a pretty common response to affection... and actually, after reading your post on Betsey's thread the other day, it seemed pretty predictable.
Quote: She once again asked where all this emotion came from, where has it been, but also said that this is what I always did (touch/physical) and it wasn't enough. I said I know now it wasn't enough, but it was the way I tried to say ILY.
First, she can't say it is what you always did and then ask where it comes from. Well, she can but she is clearly talking in a circle, and to me sounds like defenses are coming down a bit... feeling the emotion from you and then "remembering" her position that things haven't changed, perhaps even a glimmer of realizing that wait, he WAS like this... he DID show emotion through touch... She is struggling with many emotions.
I think reminding yourself to be her friend was the right move. It was the toughest move, too. My hat is off to you (well, I'm not actually wearing a hat, but figuratively). Explaining your motives "in the past" were your LL was also good. I'd bet that she really heard that, whether she let on or not.
What Seattle said about good friends being rare is true. Women can find sex and a kiss more easily than a caring friend. It's also worth remembering that sex and kissing may not be what she is seeking.
((((((Merrick)))))))) I don't really have anything to add since my H is similar in that he has no emotions for me right now. I know it's tougher for you since she is so verbally abusive w/you. At least we have been able to remain calm in that respect although our R was never loud in that realm so it's a bit easier I guess.
Just wanted you to know that I was thinking of you. I don't have anything to say in response to Seattle (one eerie thing is that his post here was 666 for him..what's that about???) Tootles to both of you (merrick and seattle)........
That's the third darn 666 this past month. Downandabout and Briget were the other two!!!
Here's a post I sent to Briget on this on why I do not like it:
Briget:
I'll be as quick as I can and you may not want me on your board after this, but here it is.
I was a precocious kid and know-it-all teenager that showed very little respect for authority--including God. While I really never did anything violent, I was always mischievous and inviting trouble. My friends used to joke that I was an agent of the Devil and called me Damien from the Omen. As disrespectful as I was, I played along.
Well, in the Summer of 1980, I worked on the census with many of these same friends. The census divides geographic tracts into enumerator districts (E.D.) and it turned out my very Jewish E.D. was numbered 666. My friends all said it pointed to me and constantly teased me about it. Over time I started to genuinely have bad vibes about the number--especially as I moved away from agnoticism to believing. Every time I saw 666, I wondered if someone was sending me a message and if I was seeing the number more than I should.
To top this off, the night my son was born in 1994 (our first child), I went home to get some things to bring back to the hospital. When I got back to the hospital, I parked my car and looked at the odometer--and the final numbers were 666.0. With my history I freaked and paid my $2 dollars to leave the parking lot and drove around for five miles to get away from that number before coming back. Naturally, my son is every bit as precocious and challenging as me and is a major factor in the hurt W and I experience with one another. I kid you not that for the last 24 years, at some level I feel the Devil haunting me every time I see this number. So thank you, thank you, thank you, for adding one more post.
7777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777 Now no more worries about triple sixes.
I'm sorry I didn't get to be first.I wish I had some nice wise words.
The only ones I have are take care of yourself and your kids.Your the sane one right now.
Later Friend. Briget
The grass is always greener over the septic tank... Erma Bombeck
Treat hate with Love... DR. Martin Luther King
