I just wanted to drop by your new 'home'! I love shoe shopping, i just can't help myself when i see a cute pair! I have to have them!
It is so important to take care of yourself when your dealing with all this stuff. It is so easy to get caught up in the drama that you forget to have fun. I had to FORCE myself to get out and do, and boy did that make a difference to the PMA!
As for the phone calls.....spooky! Isn't it funny how many times our gut is right? I guess you just have to wait and see what comes of it.
Also, didn't let H contact you (unless you really neeed to speak to him about something), i think it would demonstrate to him that you are getting on with things.
Quote: I love shoe shopping, i just can't help myself when i see a cute pair! I have to have them!
Ditto, Lee!!!!!!!!
Happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come and sit softly on your shoulder.... (thoreau)
Thank you, thank you for dropping by and wishing me all good things. I feel very blessed when I read these posts!
Update Talked to H earlier this week. I finally broke down and called him... I just keep feeling this strong intuition about it and so I did.
He said he "thought he might have" dialed me by accident last week trying to call a work colleague. OK then... now this seems odd to me, but who knows. No, I did not say this, just said OK.
We had a very pleasant chat. He told me in great detail all about a problem he was encountering with his computer. He hoped he would be able to fix it and it was causing him trouble. I think he'll be able to solve it eventually and told him so. It was nice to hear about his work and he seemed to enjoy talking about it.
He asked me about my work and remembered it was an important week last week where I work. He apologized for the lag on getting my web site done and offered to do some additional things for me regarding the site.
My other reason for calling is that I also needed to know about this month's insurance as we are back in the same boat as last month, with him not reimbursing as agreed and this causing major cash flow problems for me. However, we were having such a nice chat, I forgot to ask. I called back the next day and mentioned I'd meant to ask about the transfer. He said he would make it as soon as he could, which tells me he is having financial issues himself. I said I'd appreciate that. We did not talk.
Being a friend, I texted him saying I hoped he'd gotten that tough problem resolved.
End of that story.
Now I have been having a tremendous week. Lots of good positive things, work is going very well, etc.
Last night, however, I had a bad dream about H and OW. Worse, I actually remembered it in the morning. Yuck.
This was the first time in several weeks he's heard from me-- I don't think H has any illusions about me not moving forward with my life. He knows I am doing that.
I guess I am the one not sure what I am doing... am I being a friend or cutting him out? Frankly, he was a lot more responsive and forthcoming when I was pursuing him.
I could hear your uncertainty at the end of your post. Cutting him out etc....
I'm going to wade into dangerous waters here. Because it's obvious you are making progress and I don't want to discourage you in any way, however I think you may want to look at how you handled the convo on the phone about his not paying the reimbursement to you.
Yes, he may be having financial difficulties(small or large) but it caused you to have some too!!!( Major cash flow problems, I think you said.) The question is are you just letting him off some what by not being a little more attentive to the fact that he was late in paying?
I realize you were having a good convo and you didn't want to spoil it, but you were being unfair to yourself and to him to let this opportunity to show him a change in you go by.
There are ways to bring it up casually without beating him about the ears with it.
Just an example:
"I'm sure it's a pain to have to talk about this, but I noticed you haven't deposited the reimbursed for the insurance( notice this is not personal not saying to me or for me)...if you are having some difficulty please feel free to tell me, I'd much rather know than find out when it's a bit too late to ressurect the situation.I'm trying hard to be reponsible and take care of things so I don't get in over my head. I really would be less bothered if I could be prepared for it, so just let me know if there's anything happening with you,I wouldn't want you to feel like you couldn't tell me."
This tells him you care about being responsible, you care about his problems, it shows him you are paying attention and it includes him in the solution.....
"forgetting" to bring it up on the phone because you don't want to spoil the good convo you are having is AVOIDANCE. Which if I'm not all wet, is a problem you have had in the past with him.( avoiding problems, feelings, finances etc.)
Doing what you did just shows him that nothing has changed on your part, as far as that old response goes...and he can count on you to respond in the same old, same old. Which means he can take advantage of your soft nature if he wants to. Let's face it ...he did...he didn't get the reimbursement to you....and he expected you wouldn't or hoped you wouldn't bring it up! He sure didn''t ....he kept the conversation filled with details about a computer problem.
If he truely forgot he wouldn't mind telling you he forgot! and get it to you right away.
If you say something to him It gives him a CHANCE to save face and rescue the situation too! It opens it up for him to say: "Oh, so sorry I forgot!" Or "I am having a little shortage right now, thanks for covering it!"
It gives him a chance to feel included.
If you want him to notice you are moving on, then you need to take another look at the way you respond in the same old way.
This is not a 2x4..... this is just an observation from someone whose been there, done that, and really doesn't want the T-shirt!
I was the QUEEN of avoidance! So I can see what results from this kind of behavior....
I know it's almost impossible to do sometimes...but you will be sooo much happier with the reponse you get if you don't avoid touchy, difficult, testy subjects just because the waters are calm right now....
Someone's line at the bottom of their thread was: Sailors don't learn how to be sailors in calm waters.
Much love and big hugs...keep up the good work!
ps. He was a lot more responsive when you were pursueing because you were doing all the work.
It was very flattering to him, but again it was letting him off the hook...he needs to work for this relationship too if there is going to be any thing there...
"There is no committment without involvement".
ie: People aren't going to commit to anything unless they are invloved in it and if you are doing all the work, he's not involved in it.
Quote: This tells him you care about being responsible, you care about his problems, it shows him you are paying attention and it includes him in the solution..... "forgetting" to bring it up on the phone because you don't want to spoil the good convo you are having is AVOIDANCE. Which if I'm not all wet, is a problem you have had in the past with him.( avoiding problems, feelings, finances etc.)
Interestingly, I DID actually forget to ask him because I was focused on the conversation we were having. Telling me about the computer problem was a positive for my H. This is how he talks when he is missing me... he opens up and shares things that are important to him, and his computer skills are a big part of his personal identity. I was surprised he was talking to me like that because he hasn't been.
I DID avoid calling him back that evening, however. Guilty as charged. This is the kind of avoidance I do.
But I don't have any need to show H I am responsible. I have always been highly responsible, and particularly with finances. In our M, I never avoided finances or avoided discussing problems I was consciously aware of. Avoiding discussing feelings-- that is definitely an issue we have had in the past. I have changed that on my end-- I talk a lot about tough feelings now. H is still avoidant.
He didn't forget to transfer the money. You are absolutely right that he was hoping I would not bring it up, and was hoping to AVOID it altogether because that is his pattern. And absolutely right that he took advantage of my softness on this issue. And that it is something he has done before. He's not going to admit to me that he is having financial problems right now, but I suspect that he is.
What a great observation that my same old response is to let him get away with avoidance way too often. What a good insight!
However, I can't make him transfer the money in.
I can cancel the insurance, but only if he agrees to that. I am going to discuss with him what he wants to do when we talk next, as I have some other business I need to discuss as well. I do not feel good about suggesting we cancel his insurance unless he meets the obligation he agreed to meet.
He knows it creates serious cash flow problems for me when he doesn't. We've discussed that. He is choosing to create a cash flow problem for me rather than a cash flow problem for himself. Would I do the same thing? Maybe.
The uncertainty at the end of my post is that I am uncertain about a lot of things right now, method-wise.
Do I want him to think I am moving on? I really don't know. I think he does think that's what I am doing because it's pretty clear I have my own life.
I am not at all sure that my 180 to not initiating contact and stopping the gentle confident pursuing has not hurt the progress our relationship was making.
You see, I've never been the emotional, needy, irresponsible or insecure one in our relationship-- except for the period post-bomb, when I was those things. I was not the pursuer, not the romantic one. I was the very independent one, the responsible one. The one he felt was emotionally unavailable and detached and interested in her own life more than the M, the one who did not need him.
I suspect he was more forthcoming when I was pursuing because all this time he wanted to be pursued-- to him, I think pursuit shows he is desired, appreciated, loved. I suspect that it is more than flattering-- it is what he was acting out trying to get from me in the first place.
But since he has had the A he also feels he doesn't deserve that from me-- that part is his head trip to figure out, I think.
Yes, at some point the man needs to take his own responsibility and part in the R if it ever would work. And he has been avoiding that hard work. Have I called him on that? I have.
But I also suspect he is avoiding me these days in part because of what I do mean to him, rather than that I mean nothing to him. Dealing with the feelings and the realities requires a lot of work and strength. Avoiding dealing with it and doing something else is more of the same for him.
My accepting that is more of the same too. When I was pursuing, I was doing something different.
Really, I'm feeling good in my life. I feel very in control of where I am headed personally, more so than I have ever felt. Honestly, I'd like H to choose to be a part of that... but I am also feeling that I veered a bit off track in how I was handling this R.
Hi Wonder! Trish's 2 by 4 was a good one! Kinda like my nerf ones! She has an excellent point about the AVOIDANCE and it is always good to hear from a recoverd conflict avoider!
I know avoidance of conflict has a lot to do with my path to a D. In fact, I still see H and I avoiding conflict with each other! I guess neither of us likes to confront the other!! Such a dangerous pattern!
I could have written your last thread myself! I have gotten better with conflict avoidance with friends and at work, but for some reason, it is the "dance" that H and I do!!! I have a few good friends that are definitely NOT conflict avoiders and they are great sounding boards when I feel an "attack" coming on!!
Quote: The uncertainty at the end of my post is that I am uncertain about a lot of things right now, method-wise.
Do I want him to think I am moving on? I really don't know. I think he does think that's what I am doing because it's pretty clear I have my own life.
I struggle with this too. Do I want him as a friend? Does he want me as a friend? Or do we just forget that the other person even exists??! Hard to do in one way, but the easiest choice for two conflict avoiders..........
I guess tiem will tell. We are back with our old friend PATIENCE....another thing I am still working on developing!!!
You sound good Wonder, and I think your questions are normal at this point. If it makes you feel better, they are very similar to the questions I have been asking myself. I usually can count on answers here so we'll have to keep looking!
Happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come and sit softly on your shoulder.... (thoreau)
Quote: If it makes you feel better, they are very similar to the questions I have been asking myself. I usually can count on answers here so we'll have to keep looking!
Yes, it does make me feel better. Thanks! I think a lot of my questions are about what I want... and also how I am handling things and why.
I read a great piece on detachment last night... which pointed out that detachment is a process of doing the right thing in each moment based on your values without regard to the outcome. That it should not be confused with indifference or other things.
I really don't know that what I have been doing as regards this R during the past few months is what I believe to be the right thing to do. Up until now, I have known I was doing that. And I think there is a connection between that and the results I was getting.
OK, still thinking about avoidance if anyone is interested.
Trish's 2x4 was very welcome!
H and I have avoided certain things-- and it seems to be based on some level of perceived conflict rather than on anything real. Because when we did talk, there was no actual conflict most of the time.
I feel though that I have changed during our S in my willingness to confront H about feelings and behavior-- though I have a ways to go. I think it scares him. Scares me too, really.
When he has talked to me about "reasons" for the D, as an example, a good amount of it is clear BS used to avoid real feelings and exploration. He has said this himself and I agree with that assessment.
I'm not suggesting I can "make him" do that work or that I want to. That is his deal.
But now when he attempts to reiterate things he himself has repeatedly told me are BS, he knows I see through that, even when I am just listening.
His options are: 1. to give me the BS and risk me not avoiding it, not letting him slide. 2. to risk getting into the place he is trying to avoid and be honest. 3. to avoid having any conversation at all, which is what he chooses to do.
My options are: 1. to ask for what I really want/talk about things I feel I need to address 2. to avoid doing that
At first, I went whole hog in the other direction and confronted him about everything so he has reason to be scared of that. That was almost worse than avoiding things. I was forgetting he is the person on the other side.
I went and got some balance a while back, though. That's a change that takes time and consistency to be noticed. I'm not there yet.
I avoided calling back because I imagined some possible conflict with H and I wanted to enjoy the rest of my evening. I made myself call him in the morning. This is something that I need to recognize because as Trish points out-- it's an old pattern that I need to work on.
Here is something that does work: I practiced assertive asking when I called back. This direct M-V thing seems to work well for us. I simply asked him to do it without the explanation. He answered me. I allowed his resistance to be OK and ended the conversation.
He did do it, by the way. We still need to talk, and I left him a message to that effect, also sharing my appreciation that he did make the transfer.
Wonder....first of all, I want to thank you for wading through my recent posts and offering of clear, concise support and feedback. I am going to write down my communication goals before my conv with H.
Now...after catching up with you....I, too, have some very similiar issues. One, that you mentioned a few days back regarding your independence in your R, prior to bomb...you having alife, not necessarily needing H. WOW...that was me for sure the past 4-5 yrs. I have admitted this to H a few times...and know I allowed our R to erode some.
Maybe that's one of the reasons our Hs went looking elsewhere. They wanted to be needed and reassured. I've had to face that one square in the mirror.
Now, tho....getting onto the "avoidance" thing with H
Quote:
I avoided calling back because I imagined some possible conflict with H and I wanted to enjoy the rest of my evening. I made myself call him in the morning. This is something that I need to recognize because as Trish points out-- it's an old pattern that I need to work on.
I get that one 100%. I avoid confrontation cuz of fear....but am finally learning/practicing to be more direct, factual, unemotional with concerns and thoughts. It takes practice and time to really change old patterns.
I think you are really discovering some very good issues that are common in R. I think I should read more of the M & V book. I've only read bits and pieces.
Keep up the good communication skills. Keep doing what's working!
Quote: I practiced assertive asking when I called back. This direct M-V thing seems to work well for us. I simply asked him to do it without the explanation. He answered me. I allowed his resistance to be OK and ended the conversation.
Hi Wonder, I'm going to take a slightly different slant here, altho I'm not implying anything was by design or not ... but when it comes to confrontations, timing plays an important role in doing it in a way that works for both vs. repeating what doesn't work. When have you noticed that H is more receptive to being approached on delicate subjects? If the outcomes tends to be more positive in the AM vs. PM then maybe subliminally, it felt more comfortable to call him in the morning?
What I'm getting at is don't beat yourself up too much with that 2 x 4. The fact that you called the next morning to address the issue with H says to me that you were not necessarily in avoidance mode but waiting for a time that works better ... at least it did for you!
