WW-is there hope? Any advise from former WW's

[LANE777]

Thanks Marina,
I read your thread and can honestly say my heart feels for you. I am proud of you that you adopted 3 children. It sounds like you've been hell and back.
I appreciate your input. I am starting to realize what I need to do today to get this M back on track. Detach is the plan.
Its nice coming to forum and get back-up on everything. I like your advise on the beard..lol. I need to get my self together and be the better option.

[sandi2]

Sandi, I know my W is in there somewhere. My quick question is what do I do right now. Should I just be quiet and wait for her to contact/reach out to me? She is at work for another hour and then I know she will just be a her parents with our kids hanging out. Im not used to sitting in an empty quiet house so I usually got talk to an older friend of mine for a couple hours. This is so out of realm but think I can do this.

*

IMHO, the LBH should pull completely back. No contact, unless is is very important issues concerning the kids. Don't use the kids as your excuse to contact her. You need to meet and decide how to divide everything, and decide who take care of what bills. After that, I see no reason to contact her, being your children are as old as they are. But when you are in contact, remain civil, as long as she conducts herself in the same manner. If she turns b/tchy, then shut it down.
WW's respect one thing.........and that is strength. If she has lost respect for you, then she will challenge your newly acquired self respect. Don't let her get the best of you. Keep your dignity and hold you head high. Don't compromise your core values and belief system just to make her make happy or to try to live with her. If she's not legit, then surely you don't want a woman who thinks so little of you and/or the MR......to throw it away from some guy at the grocery store. I'm not saying you have to stop loving her. But you need to stop demonstrating it for now. Love her from a distance.

It's extremely important to follow the 37 rules. Here's the link:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2777879#Post2777879

Next link is detaching. It's not what most people initially believe when we sat detach. It's in your homework page. Also there is a link of WW threads I have, should you be interested in learning more about their mindset. The times you don't have the kids, get out of that house and GAL like there is no tomorrow. Stay with it and you'll see what a difference it makes in your life. It will help you find the guy you once were.

Should I just be quiet and wait for her to contact/reach out to me? She is at work for another hour and then I know she will just be a her parents with our kids hanging out. Im not used to sitting in an empty quiet house so I usually got talk to an older friend of mine for a couple hours. This is so out of realm but think I can do this.

No, don't sit and wait on her. Get on with living your life. That's the point.......;.you no longer care and won't spend any time "waiting around" to see what she decides to do. I don't ordinarily tell new members to ignore their spouse, but in your case, I think your W needs a major wakeup call. In other words, she wanted a separation.........so, let her get the whole meal deal. This can work for both spouses, you know. I'm not suggesting you run and jump into an affair of your own. But it won't hurt for her to hear how you are being seen around time looking really fine in some new clothes. This may be the only chance you get to feel free to do whatever you want. So enjoy it.

This is so out of realm but think I can do this.
Did I mention she has stage 4 kidney failure and is on the list for a kidney transplant? Yeah, so thats coming up. I know were not doctors but do you think it might be effecting her behaviors or do you think this WW fantasy has taken over her mind?
Thanks again for your input...Im going to work on it as we speak.

Yes, I am truly sorry about her kidney disease. I'm sure most everything has been centered around her condition. This may prove to be a real test for you, Lane, b/c even with a disease, she is capable of becoming involved with another person. She is capable of betraying her H and their M. She is capable to tearing apart a family with four kids. Therefore, when you are required to handle a situation with some b@lls, you can't back down and say, "but she has stage 4 kidney disease, so I had better lay down in my usual doormat style". The NGS plays to Christian men, and men who have a spouse with a disease.......and the NGS tells them this is the way they should behave with their W.......and it is ruining marriages across our country.

For now, work on following the rules; detaching; and GAL. If she contacts you, be nice and civil in you interaction, but don't over kill like "nice guys" do. You know what I mean.

I'm very tired and sleepy, so I hope my words are too scrambled to make sense. I'll try to write again tomorrow.

[LANE777]

Thanks Sandi,
I know it will take a few days or more for her to notice that I haven't reached out etc.
She does need a major wake up call. I think she will enjoy being left alone for a while and then it will kick in. I think the silence from me will get to her eventually . I think she is trying to mentally block me out. She is forcing herself to forget about me.
I like the idea in my head that I am dumping her instead. Even though she dumped me. I feel she still has a small attachment to me still...very small. It was a wake up call for me that she was capable of doing this. Like you mentioned in your story. A month before, you would have bet your life you wouldn't have done what you did. My W was the same way. She was super nice and had a generous heart and a very kind person. Everyone always told us how beautiful our family is. This is still so weird to me. Like a bad dream and I can't wake up.
I never dreamed in a million years she would do this to me and our family. I was in shock for 2 months. My books should be here monday. I keep reviewing the 37 rules and spend a lot of time reading the WW forums that you give tons of advice and helps me understand the mindset of a WW.
I will keep you posted on anything. I think its going to be quiet for a few days though.

[LANE777]

Today was a very quiet day for me. Kids are with W. No texts for a couple days now and no contact.

I have detached and plan on staying this way for as long as possible. I m ready to GAL and show the W what it will truly be like with out my presence. I know its hopeful, but I just want one thing to fall my way...just one. Since the day she moved out it seems like I would get double fisted nut punches like every other day. 2.5 months seems like forever to me. But I never truly detached my self. This is and will be the hardest thing I will ever do. It has pushed me to my limits and then some. A WW is def a different creature.

[sandi2]

It has pushed me to my limits and then some. A WW is def a different creature.

Most definitely!

[LANE777]

Sandi
And Good evening whoever is reading this, So its been quiet for a couple of days until last night at 10 pm. I get a text from WW about the kid. She basically said I could take kids all day on Saturday which is today because she has to work till 8. She then offered them to stay with me tonite. Of course I was thinking " why so you can go out with OM" So I replied that I would take them for the day and see what they want to do. She replied that she would ask them right now. The kids said they wanted to stay with her.. I was somewhat relieved, because I love my kids very much but it gives me comfort that they stay with her at night so she's not out with OM. I know I know, she will plan her time with OM while they're with me Sun-Wed.

Today when she brought the kids over I was actually outside when she pulled up in her dads truck. She rolled down the window to let me know I had to take D to a bday party today. I said "okay".I should of left it at that...I said where is your car? She said she loaned it to her parents to go visit family out of town. I said " okay cool..... you look nice today...she smiled and said thanks..I said alright see ya later and walked off. So much for being Mister Detach...Its so f'n hard to ignore someone you love...but I tried to act cool and confident. I got my haircut and my kids were telling me "NICE HAIR CUT DAD" So, I doubt she even cared but you know..you gotta try to build attraction by looking confident and looking good. I don't think I did to much cause it was short and so fast, But I wish I would have walked away after she gave me instructions about the bday party.

A little back ground on the W. She is very passionate about her children. But I have sensed that when they're with me she said she likes her alone time. If you went back 3-4 months. She would never have said she likes her alone time. I think the kids reel her back in a little while they're all together and she likes being the mom in the moment. I can sense that. However, I can tell when she goes to work and hangs out with her friends there, she gets this attitude and they get to talking and reel her back the other way.

Also, so with her kidney disease it has caused her hair to thin out on the top. So she wears a $750 hair piece that you would never know if I didn't say anything. I paid for hair piece too damit! When she isn't wearing it she acts like a mom, a married mom of 4. When she puts it on it makes her look like she's 25 year old gorgeous woman. Its like she puts on a different identity. It makes her feel really good about herself. It takes her 2 hours to get ready for work at a grocery store. She wears nicer clothes and wears perfume. I noticed the perfume a few months ago before she moved out. But lately she has all new clothes.

I feel like the reason she wants the D so bad is that she feels guilty being married and having an affair. She wants out of the marriage so she can pursue and not be so secretive etc.
Do you think the guilt will ever go away even if we do get a D? I remember before I knew about the WW mindset telling her that she most likely be more unhappy being divorced. She was wayward so that was the wrong thing to say.

Anyways I take the kids back to her at 8. I will just drop them off and stay in car and leave. I get them back in the morning.

[LANE777]

What good is living this life youve been giving if all you do is stand in one place. By Lord Huron Ends of the Earth

[sandi2]

I feel like the reason she wants the D so bad is that she feels guilty being married and having an affair. She wants out of the marriage so she can pursue and not be so secretive etc.
Do you think the guilt will ever go away even if we do get a D? I remember before I knew about the WW mindset telling her that she most likely be more unhappy being divorced. She was wayward so that was the wrong thing to say.

Well, those are questions that only she can answer. I do know this much...…..that I have my first time to see the H who really comes close to guessing how his WW is feeling/thinking. I mean, men can't figure out a rational woman, so they sure won't be able to figure out a wayward. I have noticed that most H's initially think their WW must feel some guilt. They would probably be shocked to know just how cold and nonguilty she really feels. So, maybe it's a coping mechanism for the LBH of a WW, IDK.

I won't go so far as saying the WW feels absolutely no guilt...…..but it is nothing to the degree her H thinks, b/c she sees herself as justified. How can you feel guilty if you believe you are justified? I maintain that her feelings of guilt really don't kick in until she gets her eyes opened and the fantasy comes crumbling down. As long as she's lost in a fantasy, she's not going to feel remorse.

To me, it sounds as if you are trying to see your W as still being the moral conscious person she was in the past. From what I have been able to learn, her moral code and religious practices are pretty much kicked to the side of the road, until she ends the affair and starts working her way back. I believe feelings of guilt can come at any point in life. It may years down the road, but if that person is able to see their actions as being destructive in order to gain their selfish desires...…..then I think there's a chance to experience remorse. But let me go a bit further and say that I think the WW has to have some level of compassion, in order to feel remorse. Maybe that's just my own thinking, but if she doesn't care anything about the one she betrayed and the family she destroyed, then she may not care enough to be sorry for hurting them. Make sense? Unfortunately, most WW's rush into divorce, and it is years later that she admits to herself the pain of devastation she caused. However, that doesn't mean she lets anyone else know.

Does the guilt ever go away? That's up to the individual. I'll take myself for example. I am a Christian, and I know I've been forgiven. My H forgives me, too. I don't lay awake at night tossing and turning with guilt-ridden feelings. However, I will forever deeply regret what I did. It cannot be undone. For me, the difficulty was in forgiving myself.

The wayward W has confusion, but at the end of the day, she's going to do what benefits her the most. Selfishness is her motivator. Remember, this is not the girl you married.

((hugs))

[LANE777]

Sandi,
You always enlighten me on what I am thinking and also give me a different point of view as well. So far I think your dead on when it comes to me or the LBH. We want them to feel remorse and guilt so bad. We want them to feel the hurt they've caused.

Does the fantasy eventually come crumbling down? That is another thing that us LBS pray for every day and night. At least for me. I want so bad for her fantasy to end. I know it will take time and me GAL for her to start recognizing any of this mess she created. Its hard for me to understand how fast it all changed even though it was most likely in the works for a while. I was coasting thinking this is married life. She never once told me she was unhappy until a few months ago.
Very sneaky these WW are.

Sandi, your are right that I am denial and wanting to see my W as a moral straight person. I think this because of our marriage and having 4 kids etc. I read that when the affair ends she will work her way back and may see the damage she did to our wonderful family. Im glad you mentioned that WW rush into divorce. I don't want that of course but I was a little worried that most WW liked the best of both worlds. I do believe there is some compassion in there somewhere and it does make sense.

I really like your story Sandi. Its about a person who went through hell and back and is here to help guys like me who don't have a clue. You tell it like it is!! I like the reminders cause thats what us men need.

Today she texted me that she was tired and going home to rest and would see the kids on Tuesday. I just replied ok.
Her health issued may catch up to her sooner than she thinks. It may help lift the fog soon hopefully but you never know.
I don't know why a younger single guy needs to chase a married mom of 4 with kidney failure. Must be a hard up guy with very low self esteem. It makes me wonder what issues will start to surface that will make W see its just fantasy and not so real.

I am a Christian as well. I believe God is in my corner but can't make choices for us. We all have free agency and will have to answer someday if we don't repent. I believe in forgiveness and it takes a strong person to ask for it, it takes a stronger person to accept forgiveness.

Sandi, thanks for helping understand this WW mindset. I really hope to get this woman back. I think I have a good shot based on the circumstances. It will be a lot of work and patience, my lack of patience has cost me. However, my W and I are good parents. We still like each other. She is just very lost right now and not thinking. Like you say "she is not the girl I married"

Its very strange. I know she doesn't go out very often with OM. Its still an affair. I try not to think about it. But I know its only 1 or 2 a week. Then again a WW is sneaky and will do anything to get her fix.

Wish me luck and I will check back.

Lane

[sandi2]

You always enlighten me on what I am thinking and also give me a different point of view as well. So far I think your dead on when it comes to me or the LBH. We want them to feel remorse and guilt so bad. We want them to feel the hurt they've caused.

By the time the wayward enters her rebellious stage, her mindset is so warped and she's just thinking everything negative about her H. I mean, she blames him for everything bad in her life. She may demonize him to her friends or mother.....whoever. Her sense of entitlement rises and the selfishness just seems to take over. When she crosses that line that brings a third party into the MR (whether it is an EA or PA), the fog prevents her from seeing objectively. I mean, she knows she is doing very wrong. That's why the affair is usually secretive. But I don't know if she really sees the degree of pain it's causing.....or if she's just so caught up in the thrill of the secret affair that she just doesn't care. I think she puts on blinders....….especially where the kids are concerned. I don't know that for a fact, I'm just sharing my thoughts based on the countless experiences I've read.

Does the fantasy eventually come crumbling down?

I think it does when that fantasy involves another real person. IMHO, women who have fantasies about a fictional character in a novel, or even some celebrity...., can keep that fantasy going for the rest of their life. The reason is b/c they know it's not real. However, it affects her MR in a very real negative sense, b/c she compares her H to the fictional romantic character. Many H's would laugh it off if they read this, b/c they don't understand the power of the imagination. She reads these romance novels, watches love stories on TV, and fantasizes about being with that character. Then when her H wants to make love, her attraction for him falls short, b/c he can't measure up to the fictional character. I know it sounds nuts, but it happens all the time. I believe Cadet's W had an imaginary affair, and it was strong enough to tear that relationship apart, so men should not laugh it off and think there is nothing to worry about.

An EA can go on for a very long time, also. It just depends on the individual stitch. When the affair has real people in it, then eventually I think someone will usually fall b/c we know human beings can't be perfect. Sadly, some very unwise decisions can be made before the WW gets her eyes opened to her reality. As I've mentioned in my first thread about WW's, I think the LBH can help by not enabling her. Let her see how things will be without him in her life. Let her experience the reality. Too many H's are afraid to stand up to the W and not give in to her demands. Then when she cries that her life is too hard, he wants to run in and recue her.

It's like the parable of the son who left home and squandered his inheritance by living on the wild side, having one big party...….and finally one day he saw how far he had fallen, b/c he was in a pig pen. His eyes were opened and he thought about his father back home. You know the rest of that story, I'm sure. I think the same is true for the WW, except in some cases she has divorced her H and married her affair partner......or, the LBH has become so disgusted with her that he no longer wants her. So, to answer your question, yes, I believe the fantasy does crumble.

I really like your story Sandi. Its about a person who went through hell and back and is here to help guys like me who don't have a clue. You tell it like it is!! I like the reminders cause thats what us men need.

Oh, that is so encouraging! Thank you very much.

It makes me wonder what issues will start to surface that will make W see its just fantasy and not so real.

I think she has to suffer some type of loss as a consequences of her decision to rebel against her H & MR. It might be just one thing, or it could be a total of things that finally get her attention. And, I think she has to see that connection, that it is the consequences for the decisions she made.

I can see in hindsight how things started falling.....getting me ready for the big shock. At first, it was seeing little flaws in the OM. I didn't want to see them, either, so I tried to make excuses for him. I had planned to tell my grown kids that I was considering leaving their dad, and of course, I was going to make him sound pretty bad. So, I tell one, and he runs to the other and first thing I knew...….my oldest was telling me that she knew all about OM, b/c she found my computer history!!! And the only reason she checked is b/c I had left one his messages on the monitor. (See how careless a WW can be?) I couldn't blame my H, or anyone else. I was so humiliated I wanted to die. She read some raunchy stuff. It's not what any mother wants her D to find! Ironically, I had been the spiritual teacher for my children all their lives. I had always tried to live the example before them......and I just ruined my life's work. It was all gone b/c of one careless act by me. I was so concerned how their spiritual lives would be affected b/c of my sinful acts, not to mention that I knew I had lost all the respect they had for me as a Christian. There is more to the story, but that was my loss. It's different for every person,

I am a Christian as well. I believe God is in my corner but can't make choices for us. We all have free agency and will have to answer someday if we don't repent. I believe in forgiveness and it takes a strong person to ask for it, it takes a stronger person to accept forgiveness.

I completely agree.