Coming out of the Fog

[Vanilla]

Here is the rub, a good person? How do you know?

You make judgements, value judgements. Having been in one amazing R and M, one with a cheater who wanted to explore his sexuality and finally the Giggleo.

Clearly the last The G wasn't a good person although he pretended to be and was a master at that pretence. I made a value judgement on it and it was wrong. He appeared to be a good person and wasn't. On paper he seemed to be. But he was a compulsive gambler, smoker, drinker and womanizer. A rageoholic who nearly killed me and who stole my money. Sued me on D for half my assets having wasted his. I was raped, bullied and manipulated. Should I stay M to that person? No. For two years we dated (and lived together) there was NO evidence of the behaviour that became the norm. And I just 'Marry Him', exactly the philosophy that got me into trouble.

I do not believe that any healthy M with someone of this type is possible. I took the philosophy of Marry Him. I thought he was a 'good person', a widower with a deceased son and a reasonable job. Within 3 months of M, he had spent all his money, lost his job because he wasn't going into work spending his days gambling instead, stealing money and I learned that he might have smothered his first wife whilst she was dying of cancer, all his qualifications are bogus too.

Just Marry Him doesn't work in all cases. It didn't in mine.

H2 was a gentleman in every way, but he cheated with almost everyone in sight, but he was a 'nice guy'. I stood for it for 20 years and finally after hearing that he wanted to explore his sexuality in Thailand, I said enough. Stay M? No thank you. Ironically after two years of D, which was amicable and civilised, H2 decided he wanted his M back. It was 10 years in before I found out he was Mr Cheater Pants, whilst living in a sexless M because 'I don't want to put your health at risk V'. I stuck it out but it didn't change. I wasted my life. I should have walked at year 10 not year 20.

In your eyes Zues, your sister may have wasted her life but I don't see it that way. Each R is a learning curve part of our growth.

And there are great matches out there.

V

[Vanilla]

On yes and H2 would have been '"comfortable with me exploring my options whilst being M' and perhaps we could make joint decisions.

WTF?

I am not a cheater nor would have had any A (PA or EA). Even though H2 had come to 'understand that sexualiry was a complex matter and monogamy was only one lifestyle choice' and 'oh, one I could validity make or not. That was my decision but not his choice.

So I could stay within my M if I wanted to, but he wouldn't. But he wanted to stay M Because he liked it!

And some of the stuff I read on this board and behaviours of waywards and abusers is repulsive in the extreme. But I guess the LBS just 'Marry Him'.

When someone shows you who they are believe them.

V

[AndrewP]

Something brought me over to this thread today. Actually it was spotting Vanilla's comments but I re-read back a bit.

Sorry I started typing and like usual couldn't figure out how to stop.

I agree both that unicorns are legendary creatures that if they exist, have very likely been hitched to the plow already and aren't wandering wild.

For people who have failed marriages - we are all damaged in some way or another. Whether we were victims of infidelity or finally had enough with a crappy partner or were the crappy partner ourselves - we're not unicorns.

Early on I was figuring that do find someone to share what remains of my life that I would have to settle. Part of that was because I had a very poor self-image and figured that I wouldn't be attractive to someone else.

But it scares me about men. And what is out there. <snip> but i am wondering if maybe NG is not so bad? He wants exactly what I want. Which is a committed relationship and partnership. He would not cheat. He is not an addict. Isnt that most of the battle in finding someone? He texts me everyday. He will work with me on issues. Offers to help. He just has a blunt and filterless personality. We dont really have similar interests. Hes not very sociable either.

A lot of people think that to be compatible that a couple needs to have the same interests. Personally, I don't think so. But they have to respect each other's differences. I used to say that the three little words that "saved my marriage" were "Have fun dear". We won't bother going down that rabbit hole too much. But it was true. My ex and I had different but somewhat overlapping interests. She liked a whole series of TV shows that I found too graphic to stomach. I built small boats and shopped for bow ties. She would be the life of the party. I would be sitting visiting and chatting with one or two people. You yourself wrote about a couple who made it work either despite of or because of their differences.

I've spent a bit over a year now being a lurker on a couple of OLD sites. There are some presumably very nice ladies out there. I've also met a number of ladies IRL and gotten closer to ones I knew before. I even had a date with one. I have realized now that my eyes are open to it that there are indeed quite a number of mature single ladies around even here in my remote area. And when grocery shopping and such now that I have an idea of what to look for, there are a large number of mature single men around too.

If I were to be more actively looking for someone perhaps I could indeed find a lady friend (don't like calling them "girls") in relatively short order. Maybe I already have. There are three that I've been getting to know who are in the "maybe" group. Do they have flaws? Darned tootin they do. Two of them are smokers. One appears to be quite controlling. One has never had to "adult" much still living with her parents in her 40s. I could go on.

I've been assured by a great number of people that if I chose to dive into the shallower end of the gene pool that there are lots of opportunities for me to have relationships that may also be shallow but would mean that I'm not waking up alone. It drags on me to be alone. I think it does on many of us. But when I do make a choice I want it to be the right choice for me and for that other person. Not just because it's convenient.

Does that make me love-avoidant? I dunno. Two of the ladies I had some interest in are now somewhat unavailable. One changed jobs and while she did return the couple of texts I sent her, it was pretty clear that I am firmly in the friend / guy she knows zone now. One moved to another country.

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I wanted to also touch on trust. It's not explicitly mentioned in your post JujuB - bit it is implied especially around gas-lighting. My default position is to trust. I know that people aren't trustworthy. It used to annoy me that I felt that I was "obliged" to trust my ex when she would promise to do some task or other knowing full well that it wouldn't get done. I accepted the regular lies about all sorts of (usually small) things as just the way she was.

I make an effort to show myself to be trustworthy - seeming silly on that. I for example have no issue and will just hand over my phone to someone else, especially if it is a lady who I am interested in. Things I don't want them to see - bank accounts and such-like are under another layer of security but if asked I would - if the reasons were valid certainly show that. Another example is the lady that I've recently started to get to know a bit. She was having a bad day and so I gave her my contact info and said that she was welcome to call if she needed to talk. I didn't ask for her's.

I do think that one of the biggest things holding me back from a new relationship is trust. It's almost as if I expect that anyone I will meet will in some way minor or major betray my trust. I may explore this more elsewhere.

So as others have said JujuB - don't "settle". If you or any of us chose to form a relationship with someone I think we need to accept that people have flaws and will reveal / develop new ones as time passes. You and we all need to decide what flaws are deal-breakers and which ones we can accept.

Just my 2 cents $CAD

[DonH]

I told him about my wants in a relationship and he was very open to them. I never told him my wants before. I was afraid to.

I cannot begin to say how often I've heard things like this. It's not just you Juju, but many women - and I'm sure men as well. They don't ask what it is they want from their partner or even a friend in a non-romantic R. Worse yet, even though they don't ask or state their needs and wants, their expectations remain as if they have!!!! Think about how crazy that is when I put it this way - "He has really no idea what I want and need from him and it makes me so very upset when he doesn't give me what he has no idea that I need." Now, that is a rather out there example but I think it makes my point. It is so very common. Many times the person who does not ask or state their needs is afraid to - "What if he doesn't want to do those things or give me these things?" Well I guess he might not. But he might be very willing to give you these things if he only knew that you wanted and needed them. To so many, it appears obvious - "well how could he possibly not know what I want - it's what EVERYONE wants." While some may think that what we want and need - is what "everyone" else wants and needs. NOT EVEN CLOSE. People are so different with what they want and need. That's the root of the 5 Love Languages - how people receive love IN DIFFERENT WAYS. What one person finds cute or loves to receive - another HATES.

Unless we are willing to ask for what we want and need, how can the other person really know? And then we get plssed off at them when they don't read our minds. Often I think this is based in our past Rs and our history.

I want to word this correctly Juju as I don't at all want to come off as mean or cold. It just seems that you've really been hurt by guys in the past and you have not healed from it well. You've lost the confidence to ask for what you need. You are perhaps not even sure - so it's just easier to avoid the conflict and walk or even run away. It's one thing to do so with the "big things." I mean, if some guy tares into with "You dumb Fckin C---, how could you be so f'n stupid?", that's pretty obviously someone who is abusive and you need to stay away from. You should not have to tell someone that words like that hurt your feelings. Contrast that with, "OMG, Juju, that was a Jehovah Witness you just tried to ask directions from," I can tell you that most girls I've known would laugh just as hard at it as I would if it were me. It would only be if you said "That kind of hurt my feelings" that most guys would even think about it. And yes, if he says something that hurts your feelings, you should say something RIGHT AWAY - not three days later. Or, are you embarrassed that it hurt your feelings and think that perhaps it should not - and that's why you don't want to say anything? If most things hurt your feelings, that may be more about you than about them.

It's amazing how COMMUNICATION continues to be one of the leading reasons couples divorce, yet many of us continue to struggle with communication. I know for me, if you will just tell me what you need, what it is I did to hurt your feelings, I will do everything I can to not do that again. But if I don't know, how could I? I think if you can increase your communication with this or any guy you will find yourself happier and pleasantly surprised at how some of these guys actually do care and actually do want to please you. Try to trust this guy enough to let him know what you want and need. I think you'll feel better - just like you did after you discussed it with him this time.

[JujuB]

Thank you for all of the posts. Lots to process and think about.

I think gottliebs article is a bit polarizing. I am very pragmatic, so i can appreciate and relate to what she is saying. I certainly do not think of myself as a unicorn, nor did i ever expect to find one. I dont think i would trust the unicorn because i dont believe it. A too perfect guy, would make me worry that he was a pedophile or winning me over with the sweet cycle. I understand that as human beings we are not perfect.

I cant speak for vanilla, but our relationship histories have some similarities. Possibly focus as well. We were in relationships with men that were deflecting and gaslighting. Leading double lives and hiding very destructive addictions. That type of psychological damage is profound. Because i was doubting my own reality for years. Those who corresponded with me back in 2015 might remember. This was going on since at least 2011 based on my financial records. Most likely longer. t is a horrible thing to doubt your reality. To know something is up, to bring it up and to be made the source of blame. To seek validation from the person lying to you.

So gottliebs article is addressing women that are being selective over issues like men peeing on the toilet seats. Thats not me. Thats not V. I think its more the fear of not knowing what is peeing on the toilet seat and what is underlying abuse. More like its ok to pee on the toilet seat but its not ok to pee on the toilet seat and make it out like i did it when i dont even have a penis so the likelihood is minuscule.

Does that make sense?

For me, i dont know if NG was just getting moody cause he doesnt handle travel well and lost patience with me and is that common after being together almost a year or is he being abusive and trying to distort my reality? Is he a decent guy that just has no filter or is he gonna psychologically damage my son and I? Thats really what is in my mind right now.

I talked to him and told him how i felt and why it was such a big deal to me. He wants to make it work with me and told me he needs to understand me better so he can fix things and that he is asking questions to know me better. I think that was a good sign.

My initial response was to think up every bad thing about him and obsess over it and avoid him and cancel plans that affected him and his family. I made it so he was dead to me in my mind. I just wanted to get away like don and focus said. And guess what? Even now im not sure if what i did was wrong, or do i just think its wrong cause i am being gaslighted.

[EyeTie]

Juju, just popped in to see how things are going.

Dating after divorce is a slippery slope. I dated too soon, spent some time on myself then jumped back in casually. Met some interesting people, met some people that became good friends and met some people that I never want to see again. The biggest thing that I realized is that I wasn't going to "settle". That I would only be with someone who made me want to be with them. No gas-lighting, no cheating, no lies, no bs, just complete and total honesty. It was tricky to get out of the mindset that I was in with my exwife. I made up lies for her bad behavior, I covered for her, I walked on ice constantly and that was the role I was used to playing. I do not ever want to be that person again.

A wise man once told me to make a list whenever I am at a crossroad. I know I have mentioned it before here, but can't remember where. A simple pro's and con's list, in this instance, it would be things you like about this guy and things you don't. Do not lie on the list, because you are only lying to yourself. When it's all on paper, you will know your answer. We, as people, especially those of us who are divorced, tend to have a tremendous amount of empathy for people. We do not often realize it, but we do feel like "damaged goods" because we carry that stigma. We do get into a subtle mindset of "they didn't want me, no one will, I better grab onto the first person who shows interest" and it often leads us into a dark path.

Focus on you, focus on your son and maybe keep it casual with NG. You have time, you don't have to everything tomorrow.

Take care.

[JujuB]

Those are very good points eye tie.

You known that story about feeding the good wolf and bad wolf? Thats how it is with me and NG. Its what thoughts i am feeding regarding him. I can turn against him in my mind and see all the bad, to the point that i just wanted to run away.l which i did last week. Or i spend a bit of time with him and my mood changes, and i see good qualities and hope for a future.

My feelings scare me, because i felt bipolar with the extremes. I never felt like that before. To go from 1 extreme in which i was envisioning a future, to i want to break things off he is an evil person.

The good things about him is that his actions are good. He takes care of people/kids in need and at his expense. He is loyal. He is funny. He is smart. He is artistic. He is a home body. He does not drink or do drugs. He is financially responsible. Regarding a relationship, i am pretty sure he would not leave me. I did sonething pretty bad, that i would have ended a relationshio over and he forgave quickly. He wants what i want. Has time for me and wants to soend time with me. We get along and have fun conversations.
The bad thing is that he has no filter, says what he wants regardless of crudeness or hurting feelings and cant admit when he is wrong. He admitted that he cant and says he tries to make up for it in other ways. The not being able tonadmit to being wrong scared the hell out of me. Because during BD ex was so so so so wring amd never once admitted to it. My ex was spending 800 dollars a week for years on i believe pain killers while we were living with my family. And he didnt admit to it being wrong. He told me "its my money. I had every right to do what inwanted with it"... he

[JujuB]

So i have been in a funk about my life. I have been thinking about that Gottlieb article. And again, i am a pragmatic person. I know the world can be like that.

I know that it is a white mans world.

But to be honest, it makes me wish more then any thing that i was a lesbian. The article is basically saying that because i am female, i need to date down in order to have a partner. I cant expect to have an equal in terms of looks, intelligence, health or age. And i cant expect to have an equal because i am female.

I get it. I totally do. Its how the world is. I am 40 now. I should have been savier in picking a better partner when i was in my 20s. I should have been more self preserving in general. . Why wasnt i brought up that way? I never negotiated for myself or capitilized on my strengths when i was younger. I believes in family and love and i feel my parents did a bad job not educating me about the ways of the world.

But i dont understand why all these white men complain about their lot in life. Why the need for a Jordan Peterson (i am not adverse to him, just saying is all), when they have mating priviledge in addition to every other privilege? My son will be a white man. So this priviledge will make it easier for my own offspring.. And possibly me, if he takes care of me in my old age. So maybe its better i dont oppose it. But still. Its there. And thats basically the juxt of that article.

BTW i was reading about how less men are college educated now. An article was using this to infer the decline of men and calling for change ...but a college education has become a pretty big waste of money in the states. Often times Men can earn a good living without a college degree. They get trained in a skill set in a job with a union and benefits and overtime. I had to go to school which left me out of the work force for years and build debt to obtain a job that does not pay nearly as much as a blue collar job. Point i am making is that a female would be making minimum wage without some sort of fancy degree. Thus, the article is BS. And education, should not be an argument to deny privilege

[doodler]

JujuB,

None of us got to chose our parents, our heritage, our place of birth, our skin color, our looks or our IQ. And, certainly there are many wrongs foisted on us by society and the randomness of reality, but regardless of the circumstances, you have to make the best of what you're given. I'm not saying that wrongs shouldn't be made right; what I'm saying is that if you get caught in a downward spiral of blame and abject despair over your life as it is now, you're just going to end up as a seething ball of anger and depression. It's a slippery slope.

[doodler]

Oops..."chose" should be "choose"...