Wow, Randy, you sure ask tough questions! I'll try to answer them to the best of my ability right now and think about them some more.
BTW, I like your new name!
First of all, Mr. Wonderful is not an X. At least yet. I really don't think he will wind up as my XH, but you never know.
What I did wrong. Before he moved out, I did everything wrong. I cried constantly. I was VERY angry. I left him sappy cards on his dashboard. I put out our happiest wedding pictures. I pursued like you wouldn't believe. Wow, I'm making myself sick!
What I did right. I hooked up with friends who have traveled this path! I have 3 friends (who are still together) who gave me lots of great feedback. I decided to read more self help books. I insisted on getting a legal mediator. And when my D10 expressed a total fear of my anger and out of control emotions, I got a handle on them really quickly.
If I could do anything differently, well, the obvious answer would be I would have applied what I learned over the past year while I was still married. I would also have more faith in myself. I would have found DR a whole lot sooner, and I would have really made a point to quit lurking on this BB and start posting. Oh, I would have known I was a crazymaker and a control freak, so I wouldn't have had such a failure curve to overcome.
But you know what? I could make a list here and say that I've done a whole lot more right than I have wrong. And I have to tell you that I'm really pleased that I can say these words.
I know that many of you are thinking I'm completely nuts. But I'm going to repeat something I said to Merrick last month: I think that God gives us situations we can handle. I know a few of us who have commented that we couldn't live in another's shoes.
That being said, most of the time, I think I have it easier than others. Mr. Wonderful and I began our R as friends. We were best friends, and this foundation was what the rest of our R was built upon. (I really miss that guy the most.)
While things were not easy in the early months of our separation, it was me and my emotions that created most of the turmoil. He wasn't exactly agreeable, but he was not thinking clearly. Looking back, I feel fortunate that he would agree to sit down and discuss issues we had with our girls with a goal of being solution minded rather than focusing on blame.
I have to give him credit for putting his personal feelings aside.
As time marched on and I was getting the DB/DR principles down, I started really approaching our interactions from an observatory standpoint. I mentally tallied how I addressed him and monitored the results.
In short? I took Michelle's advice and stuck to her program. I decided that if I was in this pickle, I would find a way to make myself a winner--no matter what happened.
The more I applied acting AS IF and doing 180s, the more feedback I received. It took me awhile to figure this out, but I realized that Mr. Wonderful really DOES think of me as a close friend. I won't lie to you and tell you it was easy.
There were times when he would tell me stuff going on in his life (without ever asking anything about me or mine, naturally) and I would think to myself, "Oh, yes, it's all about you! Yippee! I can hardly wait to hear more! Want me to lie down in front of you so you can stomp on me? Why aren't you making new friends so I don't have to hear about you anymore?" Blah, blah, blah. You get it.
I understood last October that our friendship is what was going to bring this guy back into my stratosphere. He told me he didn't miss me, but his actions spoke for him loudly... my neighbors commented, "For an estranged guy, he sure as heck spends a whole lot of time over here."
Then I noticed that he would bring the girls over early and do a chore around the house. A few times he brought beer and asked me to play cribbage. He spent a weekend putting up Christmas lights on the house (and then went back to his apt and put them up around his balcony as well). He wrote to my parents.
Little things that told me I was still important at some level.
Let me reiterate that I no longer see these as baby steps. They were definitely steps then, because he was drawn closer to me by my actions and words. I honestly feel that this man loves me with all his heart. But he's so hurt and wounded that it might not be enough.
How he loved me over the past 5 years wasn't enough for me, Randy. He had horrible role models in both being a good spouse and in parenting. Well, if he can be a terrific dad, he can be a terrific husband too.
All in all, I married a great guy. But he's fearful of what it might take to heal. He fears me never forgiving him. He fears that this will come up for years. He fears that he will lose himself by choosing to love me the way he wants to be loved.
I understand all this, and it no longer scares me. He either decides that he is willing to work to come home or he doesn't. But this is where I have to be careful. I am a reformed control freak. I am a recovering crazymaker. And I married a man who acts very passive-aggressive to me when I make demands.
The key is to encourage him to make decisions and help him feel safe in making them. The former me wasn't so kind.
So where I know that I had to change, I finally see that I am not 100% to blame for our demise. He owns at least 50% of it.
Now it's time for my favorite part of this discussion.
While I wouldn't take $10M to relive the past 2 years, I wouldn't trade the lessons I've learned for anything. I'm happier now than I have been for a really long time (maybe ever). I finally learned that if I don't take care of my needs on my own, I cannot expect someone else to prioritize them.
With the help of some wise and wonderful people here, I've been able to identify and correct some behaviors that caused me harm (though they weren't intentional). I've learned how to be respectful toward someone who has really and truly hurt me.
And I've taught my D10 how to love someone who hurt me. I've done it with a whole lot of dignity, and I really hope that she's a better person for this experience. We've become very close since her dad left, and I've become a much better and more understanding mother.
If you choose to do this for the right reasons, this can be the biggest present you ever give to yourself. I've learned more in the past year than I've learned in the previous 40 combined.
What I would suggest to you, if I may. It's tough to be friends with someone who's shot a dagger through your heart. But it is a wise person who realizes that they are hurting too. She probably didn't set out to hurt you--but to escape a situation that had become unbearable.
If you can empathize with her and validate her need to do something different, you might see this as the ultimate gift of love. God calls us to do this. I tell D10 that it's easy to love people who act loving and lovable. But it's a real test of faith to love people who need pity and compassion and who behave atrociously.
Find something positive about this situation, and you might be able to tap into a much bigger resource. I don't know the answers, Randy. But I would start by asking you one simple question: What was it about you that convinced her you were the one man she couldn't live without?
Come back and visit. I might have to start a new thread here before the day is out.
Good luck and a big hug to you.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
betsey, Thanks for responding. First i may need help linking my old thread when i get locked out in current one. I have started reading your thread from the beginning. i printed it out. WOW, 72 pages. I'm half way thru. Good reading.
I have not become as strong as you yet, but i will get there. I have done alot of crying tonight for some reason. Maybe I'm starting to realize it is over. I signed the D papers that i missed the last time and mailed them to her today. You know my sitch pretty well, but let me tell you some things you may not know. My W has said only 1 mean thing to me during all this. She said i was no fun before she left, but she apoligized for it. Since she decided to leave she has not wavered on her decision. She has lied alot to me which is something she has never done before. she was the most honest person i know before this. I asked her once if she meant for better or worse and she said at the time she did.
She said last sat. that she still cares about me, but she is not in love with me and doesnt want to be married to me anymore. Well she has said she cares about her other XH and it sounds the same as how she cares about me. I know she only cares about him like you would your neighber. She doesn't want to see him have a bad life. It is more compassion than anything.
We were best friends before we got married. She's the closest friend i have ever had and she said the same of me before we got married. We dated 6 years before we were married. She even asked me out. Well thats nothing great she also chased after OM.
I know what you mean by realizing she is hurting too. I know she is and she is hurting for OM if it is over for them. I know my W and i know she did not do this for sex. she had to think there was a future with him. So she probably is not thinking of me much now. I have already forgiven her and told her so.
Wonder said something on your old thread that i have been thinking about my W. She may be afraid that she will love me again and that the marriage may work and will require a lot of face saving and backtracking from all of what she's been saying and doing. that sounds alot like her. It's why i don't have alot of hope. She runs from problems if it is too hard to do.
She deserves to be happy and i know she would be happy with me, but she has made up her mind and she is very stubborn.
She doesn't seem to realize how much I have lost. My family and my best friend. That's why it is so hard to realize I can't just call and confide in her. I cant' even call and say hello. She works next to me and i see her car every day and i can't go by her desk and wish her a nice day. Hell, i cant even email her.
She loved our house. We built it together and had fixed it the way she liked. It is one of the nicest houses in the neighberhood.
Wow, I'm glad i got that off my chest.
are you and H still Separated? Did he ever leave? How did you get him to move back in? If you want to lay it all on me in email that will be fine. rkwaugh@hotmail.com
I will try to lists some goals tomorrow at work. I may need your help with them. I'll put in on my thread if I don't get locked out of there.
Thanks a lot Betsey, you are a great friend. God Bless You, Girl.
Just wanted to say I was over here cheering, "Bravo!" and "Hooray, Betsey!" the whole time I was reading your post to Randy.
I can relate to SO much of what you posted here and your approach. I've tried to approach my sitch in much the same way... I've felt so much of what you explain so eloquently!
Quote: All in all, I married a great guy. But he's fearful of what it might take to heal. He fears me never forgiving him. He fears that this will come up for years. He fears that he will lose himself by choosing to love me the way he wants to be loved.
This is exactly what I believe about my H-- my longtime best friend-- too. Unfortunately, I think he will keep moving FSA with the D. Seems I am off the agenda these days... I am struggling with whether I approach him with these things now.
Your D is most definitely better for the experience of watching her mother respect and love with dignity someone who has hurt her. My mom said to me the other day that watching me "do this" has taught her a lot about love and character. We too have grown closer, and that was a very meaningful thing to hear from my mom.
Randy, sounds like you are headed in the right direction. Be firm yet patient-- and I mean with yourself, too. Love the new name.
Could I ask you guys to put by my thread I could do with your advice. Thanks Joanne
Always questioning???
Not always sad!!!
Joanne
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is to not stop questioning. Albert Einstein
How funny that you are commenting on the new name for Randy. Meredith and I just tackled this issue with a different poster. What's in a name? I think TONS. It's always good to see someone get rid of a negative one. I really believe it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Betsey, your post made me smile at times, feel sad at others, and shake my head in agreement a lot. My H came in as I was shaking my head at the monitor, and he asked, "What are Meredith and Betsey up to now?" He couldn't even see the screen, but must have been able to tell by my body language. Incidentally, some day I will tell him how much he owes you two!!!
Anyway, I wanted to address something that is bugging me.
Yesterday someone posted a link to a site about WAS's. It was proclaimed "hilarious" or something like that.
Um, I don't know why, because I rarely venture to things like that, but I went to look.
Now, I consider myself to have a pretty good sense of humor. For crying out loud, Mer and I roflol all day long sometimes.
What I don't see is how those stories were funny.
They were sad and somewhat disgusting. A lot of those people didn't seem to find their situations amusing. (as well they shouldn't have.) Most of it just seemed angry.
I guess I just can't understand the horrible, vile names for the OW. (The posters all seemed to be bitter women.)
Isn't one of the mantras here: The OP is a symptom, not the disease?
I'm sure I am going to be told to lighten up, or whatever. It's not a case of that. Hey, if you guys think it's funny, then that's your prerogative. I'm not saying it's not because I say it's not. I'm just saying I don't understand that mindset.
Pam - I reposted it from Bluekeys thread, and I know what you're saying. I was struck too by how bitter the people on that board sounded, and felt grateful that I found THIS board and not that one when I needed it. Still, I found the extremes of alien behavior that they described weirdly hilarious and sad at the same time. Just drives home how completely irrational the aliens can be - and how sadly lost, too.
I see so much hope for you in your post!!! I'm glad you decided to open this up, because it's time you took a good look at your glass and see it half full instead of half empty.
Getting strong? That is an element of time. That's one of the many reasons they say time is your friend. Use it to your advantage.
Before I head into specifics in regards to your W, I want to address the topic of grieving.
Randy, you have a special needs son, so I KNOW you know more about grieving than many ever will. I'm going to encourage you to do this, because this is how you become stronger. Grieving is a natural process... in order to live healthily and happily, you must pay it homage.
What you seem to be experiencing now is grieving over the death of your former R with your W. Yes, that R is dead. But in order for your M to be happy, both spouses must be happy. Your W was not, so your M was affected. Try to find a reason to be happy that she chose to do something about it--rather than to keep withholding from you and making you wonder if this was all in your head.
Don't spend too much time dwelling on the grief, but recognize that it's there and that it is important. And while you're doing this, make your list of goals and begin to put yourself as a priority.
Look at this crossroads as a means to bury your old R and forge a new one. One that holds promise and joy.
This is where I get to head right to you.
I'm willing to bet a whole lot of money that when you guys became friends, you were centered, happier and having fun. You probably had a whole lot to offer her and others. (You see that I'm encouraging you to tap into this resource heavily when making your goals, right?)
You said that she said she cares for you but is not in love with you. Well, welcome to the club! We've all heard it before, and look how far many of us have come? When we first started posting here, we really were convinced that we were going to die of broken hearts.
Let your W continue to be stubborn. But that doesn't mean that you have to be.
You mentioned Wonder's post specifically... one I remember. Also one I addressed in my own post (it is not an accident). You'll see this thought addressed throughout this forum--by both people who are reunited with their spouses and ones who are not together.
The only way you have a fighting chance to get her back is to SHOW her that you've changed. There are many reunited marriages in this forum where the benefits of the changes have convinced the WAS to put forth the effort and risk to make things work the second time around. Why not you?
But I repeat: It is absolutely imperative that you work on yourself. Actions speak louder than words, especially during a separation. (I'm also advocating keeping those words light and cordial.)
Mr. Wonderful and I are still separated. He's living in an apt about 15 minutes away from me and the girls. He walked out a few days after New Year's Day last year. I really believe that we would not have been able to make this work if he had stayed... because I doubt very seriously I would have seen the severity and criticality in changing some awful behaviors of my own.
Hey, I'm primarily Celtic... we're known for our fiery tempers and blazing passions. That fits me to a T. I finally figured out that the temper was something NOBODY liked about me. Now I'm as docile as a Eunuch (just kidding!).
But I noticed when I was visiting my folks in DC last month that I got it from my mother. She is impatient, and irritated just about everywhere she goes: drivers don't move quickly enough, people in line seem to piss her off by existing and she jumps all over my dad when he's not doing things her way.
I realized that I was destined to become that way too if I hadn't made the changes that I did. My parents are absolutely astounded at the difference... my dad wrote me an eloquent letter a couple months ago, letting me know how proud he is of me. He said I changed into a person he never thought possible... and my D10 has said the same thing. THAT is my reward, Randy.
Because if Mr. Wonderful doesn't want to take a chance with me again, some other guy is going to really reap the benefits of the changes I made--and deal with all the passion that is dying to erupt! Passion in every sense of the word, not solely in the sexual sense.
You deserve exactly the same thing. You already get high marks for traveling a path I know was difficult. Raising a disabled son has made you more qualified than you realize.
BTW, one of my model couples are people I consider my adopted parents here. They had a son with CP who was murdered by his caretaker. The W kicked her H out for almost a year after their 29th anniversary. They are still back together and have been happily married for 47 years. I have listened to their advice, and guess what? I take it! Why reinvent the wheel?
If I can do this, ANYONE can!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Wonder--Well, this HAS been a tough road, but worth it. As my dearest boss says, "Girl, if you don't get your degree magna cum laude from this University of Hard Knocks, it's your own damn fault."
Ha ha!!!
Pam--I know Ellie responded to you on that web link. I dind't go there, so I can't comment. Meredith summed it up for me last night during our chat, and I will have to agree that it didn't sound encouraging.
But as for you, dear one! I don't think your H owes us at all. Nor do you. This is a give and take place--the "apartment" where we all shoot off ideas, hoping that someone will shed some light on our difficulties and have an idea on what we need to do to overcome them.
You and Meredith and many other friends here have helped me too. That's the good thing about this place. Face it, we DO have fun--even in spite of some really disturbing events at home. Just goes to show us all that we will not only survive, but thrive.
Maybe the next thread will have something about that concept in the title? I'll be thinking about it and probably begin a new one after I finish this project from hell for a client...
Bets
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Oh, PIB, you have nothing to apologize for! I'm sorry for not being more clear in my posts... forgive me dear, for age sometimes gets the better of me.
Boundaries are good for us!!! I'm really and truly feeling and seeing the benefit in stating what is important to me... not from a control freak standpoint or one of rigidity, but love. Love for myself.
Everyone has a different threshold with this issue. But yours with the smoking are fully understandable. After all, he promised to work on this when coming home... which makes it something that he should, in good faith, live up to AND respect.
I'm giggling at the thought of your convo on the book. I know that there were parts that profoundly disturbed and affected me... so forewarned. I'm reading a book now that is a perfect feminine complement to that one--Triple J recommended it. It's called Enchanted Love by Marianne Williamson.
Give that one to your H (after you read it). It's been a really good read--and guess what? It addresses setting boundaries as a reflection of self love.
I'm thinking that this topic du jour is going to be around for a bit. So I'm going to try and start the next thread before I leave today.
Peace to all!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
