Hoosjim's 16th. Looks like we're piecing, folks.

[hoosjim]

Those are also my fear s, and all day I have been revisiting all those painful feelings and dark thoughts from the past. We talked about it again today when she called me on the way home from work. She was not tipsy this morning obviously, and she apologized profusely again, that she's sorry and that she's so lucky to have me. Said when she realized it was late getting started she should've just said "I gotta go" and come home. For my part, I listened, said yes I was still upset, especially since we had talked about this and specifically about the being late coming home. That I didn't want us slowly slipping back into old patterns that had hurt us before. Said that I expected her to call when late.

I felt like adding that I know I haven't always been accessible in the past, and that I have been pronrto being later than I said, so I now understand her frustration with that... But now with the added hurt of the situation layered on... but I didn't.

Feel like we should discuss more, and definitely MC. Artista do you have any other specific recommendations for "nipping this in the bud"

[artista]

Feel like we should discuss more, and definitely MC. Artista do you have any other specific recommendations for "nipping this in the bud"


i think having the discussion with the guidance of the MC is vital... that way you can talk openly about what you see as red flags... and if she gets defensive, MC can help her see your perspective... and you need to lay it all out in MC... the going out to comfort a friend late at night while you were away--without telling you about it first... that should be a no-brainer... even between couples who don't have the issue of past infidelity--most would let the other spouse know, even if just for safety reasons... and don't forget about her self-image issues... those are important to bring up in MC... she needs to continue to work on that in IC--until she no longer has those issues...

re: talking with the doctor about his marital problems... she is not ready to be his support... first of all, it's not appropriate because of their business relationship... secondly, she is not on firm ground herself... not yet... there may come a day when the BOTH of you can lend your support based on your experience, but it is too soon... you two aren't there yet... and when you are, BOTH of you together can meet up with whomever to share your experience and offer your support... each of you could probably do one-on-ones with members of the same sex--only... otherwise, you do it together...

are you having date nights? is there an activity the two of you do together? H and i used to workout together... we have bowled together... played tennis together... go on drives to fruit stands and farmers' markets... wine tasting... stuff like that... since we've come back together, we like to cook together... i used to do all the cooking--which i love... but while we were separated, he learned to cook and finds that he really likes it... we have fun shopping for kitchen utensils and such... keep doing these types of things as you iron out the wrinkles with MC...

with MC, your W needs to KNOW that it is not acceptable to fall back into those patterns... as i have said many times, and now Steve has said it, Words Mean Something... what is spoken and what is left unsaid matter, and if she says she wants to be home at a certain time because she wants to spend time with you and sons, that means she has to miss out on a Wine Down if it so happens to start later... so be it... there will be others that she can attend... and maybe her office mates will try harder to keep to the schedule...

you are her priority and she is yours... your M comes first for both of you...

--artista

[hoosjim]

Okay, so, it turns out that, as disturbing as a couple of those other incidents are, I was apparently precipitous in worrying about the Google search for OMs old hangout. That establishment came up today as we were talking at dinner (we met for dinner and drinks at a cozy little outdoor place we know) about things. I didn't mention her Google search, but that establishment came up when I was talking about how this is still new for us and about how the hurt is still there for me and that there are lots of things that still bring it to the surface, like when I'd drive past the OM's old establishment where i and subsequently my wife used to hang out with him. So, then, my W asks me "do you think you would ever want to go back there? You know, like a "take it back kind of thing?" And i said "I think that I could, but im not necessarily eager to do so right now." To which she said, "Yeah, i know, but i know you really liked hanging out there at one time, and that you thought their hot wings were the best" [Me: They absolutely ARE the best] Her (continuing): "I was trying to figure out a way the other night to get you some, like maybe if they were on Uber Eats or some other delivery service" To which i said "Oh, well, yeah... that would be cool... though i wouldn't necessarily be averse to ordering takeout and walking in there myself to pick them up" (As she knows, i went there a couple times on my own to confront OM) Me (continuing): "They moved, you know..." Her: "Yeah, i saw that when i was looking them up."

So, it appears that it is fairly likely that she was just exploring the possibility of getting me some wings from there, which she knows i loved and that i miss dearly. This is consistent with her web searches from that night and also her travels, etc.

Which would be great news and have me carwheeling.... if she hadn't pulled that crap last night with staying after at work and previously going out Friday without telling me. (About the latter, we did talk about that some, me pointing out that had i called home and gotten one of the boys who had said "Mom's out" with no further explanation, or even with an explanation, that it probably would have set off alarm bells with me since the hadn't told me. She had, apparently, told the boys where she was going, but she conceded my point and that it was unwise.

i think having the discussion with the guidance of the MC is vital... that way you can talk openly about what you see as red flags... and if she gets defensive, MC can help her see your perspective... and you need to lay it all out in MC... the going out to comfort a friend late at night while you were away--without telling you about it first... that should be a no-brainer... even between couples who don't have the issue of past infidelity--most would let the other spouse know, even if just for safety reasons... and don't forget about her self-image issues... those are important to bring up in MC... she needs to continue to work on that in IC--until she no longer has those issues...

FWIW, she does not seem at all defensive right now and is at least acting very contrite. She agreed we should still be seeing and talking to MC, at least jointly, though she says her body issues are behind her as a "hang up" even though she wishes in a perfect world she were in better shape. And she says she is in a "good place"... that she is very fulfilled and happy being with me and knowing that i care for her and her for me. So not sure she is easily going to concede to IC, though i really think she should be getting some either from a counselor or a pastor.

re: talking with the doctor about his marital problems... she is not ready to be his support... first of all, it's not appropriate because of their business relationship... secondly, she is not on firm ground herself... not yet...

this is going to be a really hard one. She swears up and down that they are "just friends" and that there is "nothing going on" and that there are no designs on something more either way. Who knows, she may even believe that (she certainly sounds like she does) and i suppose (though i really doubt the doctor's innocent intentions) that it is possible that she is right. Nonetheless, it is unquestionably dangerous, and (though she would disagree with my assessment here) unseemly. We have had this conversation before, and, as a result of our blow up in March and my "conditions", she has not stayed after with the doctor and her GFs or with anyone... but they obviously work together and talk daily. She is resistant to the idea of "losing friends" because she "has so few". I have brought up the specter of "You have missed cues from guys interested in you in the past, most infamously with OM", to which she responds "I was not innocent there, i was looking which she says is NOT the case now and she is confident doctor isnt. I have my doubts, obviously. At any rate, my point is that she is not going to cave easily on this one and not, IMO, without resentment. Probably be best coming from the MC, but still a toughee. Steve is right that she probably could have quit... but she is of the mind that she can't because the kids' college is proving so expensive and we have almost nothing saved up.

are you having date nights? is there an activity the two of you do together?

Yah, we are doing plenty together right now. Making it a point to have date night once a week and getaway weekends at least once every 2 or 3 months. We have been having a lot of fun actually planning and doing all sorts of different things.Next weekend, for instance, im taking her to a drive in movie near us where they are also having a muscle car "drive and show" ahead of time (she has always loved these kinds of cars). Friend of mine is loaning me his mustang convertible for the night (which she doesn't know about yet) and which should make it more fun.

Right now the boundaries, particularly WRT the doctor, seem to be the biggest problem.

Artista, thanks as always for all your help and insight... it really is and has been invaluable to me.

[SteveLW]

That's great news on the web search. Though without knowing your W, I wonder if maybe she was covering in case you had checked her history and saw her search on it. Probably not, but just a thought.

Keep up the good work HJ! Now that we are mostly settled into our new place I need to schedule a date night!

[hoosjim]

There was more on the bar, but I was sleepy when posting: She also said if it was just my concern about seeing OM that we could probably go there together in person if I wanted since one of the things OM told her last year when they were still talking was that he had had a falling out with bar owner and didn't go there any more. That would jibe with my experience last year going to confront him there VA couple of times during his peak hours and not finding him, with W's later meetups with him which were always at a different bar, and with my own perusal of that bars website and FB pics (they post alot) where OM is nowhere in evidence recently, whereas in older times he is front and center and all over the photo album, having been fairly tight with the owner. So something must actually have happened to drive him away from there. Wonder if he tried to steal the bar owner's W, too, lol...

[artista]

That's great news on the web search. Though without knowing your W, I wonder if maybe she was covering in case you had checked her history and saw her search on it. Probably not, but just a thought.

I had this very thought... As you know, I err on the side of skepticism... Although I am not sure it's a big deal if she looked up the bar out of curiosity... What I would be most concerned with is any manipulation... Which she is still falling back on... And now that Hoosjim says she no longer needs IC for her body issues, then she certainly was trying to control the situation by manipulation when she made the squishy comment...

Hoosjim, be careful not to gloss over the red flags... In the past, you have explained away questionable behavior... I am not saying you are doing that... Just be aware of it...

And I want to add, she is wrong to insist on being a sounding board for any man having marriage issues... And you are wrong to let it happen... She should not be able to call the shots here...

Mis dos centavos...

--artista

[DonH]

It's coming up on a month again since we've heard anything from you Jim. Hope everything is continuing along well. An update would be really nice.

[hoosjim]

Hey all. Busy busy busy. Both boys off to college, now, but wow was it a chore. S1 had apartment and landlord issues that had to be resolved, as well as an extremely ambitious work schedule that we were constantly having to work around, and also the overhang of a reckless driving ticket we were trying to resolve. S2, starting his first year at college, needed all the things that go along with that, plus had to get his points of contact and accommodations set up with the school (this is the one who has a very profound case of Tourette Syndrome with comorbidities.) Phew!

So, there are things to report, some good, some not so good.

W and i still have not gotten back to see counselor (no time) though that is going to happen next week, i think. ((Pending confirmation relating to all of our schedules.)

MR between W and i very good to excellent until yesterday (more on that in a second.) We hold hands and sit close wherever we go, hang out, flirt, send each other notes at work, do nice little things for each other, call and text often, etc. In terms of sex, that has tailed off a bit from right after the initial "honeymoon" period, though still regular and each of us have been an "initiator" in that regard. I still get episodes/days where i worry because i perceive a pullback or that things are a little less warm than what has become "normal", but i need to get over that. For her part, she says she has not felt any different and does not think there have been any "pullbacks." Hard to say objectively who is "right", here, although there have definitely been a couple of evenings where i have been "amorous" but she has been "shy" (although still continuing with the jokey/lighthearted banter. She continues to get "dressed up for me" putting on dresses and outfits that really make her look great and which she knows i like. I have not had any "alarm bells" go off or seen any of the signs she used to show when something suspicious was up. She continues to talk about and plan for a future with me, most notably in terms of housing where we continue to look for a house outside of the immediate suburbs of our current city but still within (long) commuting distance.

A couple of specific noteworthy items:

1) We went to her annual "employee appreciation" party for the doctor's office where she works. This is the second straight work function she has invited me to and i have gone to with her (Christmas party was first.) It was, of all places, at the house (mansion/estate is more like it) of the doctor at her office with whom i was worried that she was getting too close (reference my past posts for discussion of the after work "wine downs.") I was of course on heightened alert, and did not notice any untoward contact or hanging out with said doctor. She and i were "with" each other approximately 50% of the time, with the other time spent circulating the party and talking with others we knew. What i did notice is this: In some respects, she and this other girl from her office (the very christian one who is also this same doctor's secretary) appear to be this doctor's closest "friends" in the office. We (Me, W, and W's gf also docs secretary) were last three to leave the party... i followed W's lead and we all hung around to help clean up. This is not unusual at all for my W, who is overly helpful and pretty much always ends up being the last to leave any party because she wants to help clean up (weird, i know.) In this instance, it was more likely to occur, IMO, because doctors W got a bit too tipsy (remember she has a drinking problem) and retired to the bedroom before party was over. At any rate, two things came out of this that i noticed: a) I am now part of the "circle" that is hip to doc's wife's drinking problems. He referred to them somewhat openly when i was sitting at the table with my W and the other girl shortly after doc's W retired, and doc's secretary assured him "we're watching out for her." b) when leaving, my W and doc did "hug" each other, but it was one of those side "buddy" hugs as opposed to the frontal hug he got at Christmas... before W and i had our full reconcilliation. Was hard to tell if he was gunning for more but my W clearly was in "side hug" only mode. Still not sure i trust doc's motives, especially since, a few weeks back in response to my W's question of "so how's it going" (she meant it non-specifically as most people do who ask that), doc said "Oh, there's good days and bad days" and launched into a brief description of his and his W's current struggles with his W's alcoholism. Fire away.

2) The Bad Thing... particularly in light of having just been to doc's house and seeing all of his affluent lifestyle on full display: I had to come clean with my W about a financial matter that i had been hiding from her... to the tune of the low 5 figures.You may or may not recall from my early posts that i made some references to "crashing the finances" earlier in our marriage, part and parcel to the dot.com crash in the early 2000s. It was bad. I went from a modest five-figure portfolio courtesy mostly of gifted securities from my somewhat wealthy grandparents to over $100K in the hole due to margin. I was devestated, and it in no small part (along with my health issues) led to a huge loss of confidence and self-esteem that no doubt impacted my W's view of me over the years. At the time, i copped to what i had done, but minimized the amount (by about half... I just couldn't bring myself to say the phrase "lost One HUNDRED thousand.) I thought i could hide it, i thought i could take care of it. I hoped my family's business or my Grandparent's wealth would, in the end, allow me to liquidate it... but it didn't. Grandma and Grandpa bought into a number of ill-advised "life insurance" related products instead of setting aside wealth directly for their children and grandchildren, all of which products ended up being almost valueless to their estate (Grandpa was the second to pass away of the two in 2011). Further, after Grandpa retired from daily control of the business, everything started going to hell. In short, there would be and will be no rescue from that debt from my family's assets--- my Mom will be lucky to have enough to cover her living and medical expenses for the remainder of her life, let alone have enough to help out her children. (Dont get me wrong on this: I do not and have not ever felt "entitled" to any of this. Quite the contrary-- i studiously avoided getting involved in the family business or relying on it in terms of my own career choices. I did not anticipate or even want "wealth"-- just to have a decent job and be largely debt-free. I did, however, make what turned out to be some very wrong assumptions about the future trajectory of the family fortunes when telling myself "I can cover this".) At any rate, that extra debt ended up getting moved around from loan to loan, credit card to credit card, largely out of my W's eyes. I just couldn't bear to tell her, to crush any dreams she had of future comfort, travel, etc... and my confidence was shot. Later, when our MR was on the rocks, and separation (at least) seemed likely, i had recovered my confidence and self esteem and was turning my life around but was like "Eff it, this is my debt, she doesn't need to know about it, and it wont help your case for reconciling to drop this bomb while she's in the throes of an affair." When reconcilliation started in MArch/April, i still didn't trust the relationship's strength enough to reveal it. It's probably fair to say i did not trust her or her reaction either. (I told her as much yesterday.) Several times in the past weeks i have wanted to tell her, but then it seems like i always run into a situation where she is saying "look at this really beautiful house! this could be us!" or her getting excited about some other expenditure or even about a savings or budgeting plan and... i just couldnt bring myself to squelch/squash her dreams. (I told her this much today.) It all came out after i came back from work yesterday. The gas had been turned off for non-payment with a notice on the door showing the $1200 payment due, i had a bill for $100 unpaid parking ticket they were withholding from my tax refund (which was larger than i had told her so i could apply it to the debt), and one of the colleges had prematurely disbursed our Plus loan, triggering interest accrual, etc. I lost it, and, after pleading and cajoling with gas company on phone to accept half now half later, i sat her down and told her, prefacing it with "You were honest and told me everything, now I am going to tell you everything... and we're going to find out how strong this MR is". So i held her hand, and i told her. She didn't like it. She drew her hand away towards the end. She said "So this is just like before" (when i withdrew and kept things to myself and didn't tell her) and i said "No, i am not despondent and forlorn, now. Now I'm just pissed off that i have to keep dealing with the aftermath of this same sin, over and over and over. Yes, i effed up, and i know it. But i've been trying my ass off to get out of this debt for years, and they just don't make it easy-- the whole system seems set up to KEEP you in crushing debt once youre there. And, i'm going to say this and i don't want you to take it the wrong way, but for a while there i didn't know if i could trust you and our relationship enough to tell you... i am still not back to 100% trust in us, I still, particularly where there is some sort of pullback, or you are not as warm as you usually are, i still have that little doubt creep in: "What's wrong? Is she drifting away?"" To which she replied: "Im surprised and a little hurt to hear you say that. There is no doubt in me.. I have felt the same way every day all day for the past four months. I don't think there have been any pullbacks." And then: "I am going to need some time to process this, but right now, i want to see everything... all of the accounts, all of the debts and have it written down for me." So, we did that, and she looked at it, clearly shaken. We talked about what to pay off, and agreed to use our HELOC to pay off one of the "secret" card/loans and then go from there.

I will say this-- she has never been completely open to the idea that "Things are not great for us financially" or that "we need to have a budget and a spending plan and control what we spend." While my screw up is what underlies this mess, it was not helped...scratch that... it was certainly exacerbated by our lack of a written budget and our undisciplined spending through the years, as well as, of course, by our huge medical expenses. She always wanted a "quick fix" before, and it just cant happen. Seeing it all on paper for her last night was an eye opener. At any rate, later, after i had gone up to change, she came up and gave me a long hug. I had been changing to go on a walk but she said "Let's go over that account list one more time, and then write that thank you weve been putting off and then call the boys and see how they're doing. So, we sat in bed and did those things, and then i got up and said "Im going on my walk." to which she replied "Still?" and i said "Yes... my feelings and attitude about this whole thing right now are really dark and unhealthy in some respects... I am still very angry about it, at myself and just at the whole situation. I need to walk and pray and clear my head" and she said "Cant you do that here" to which i replied "You told me a couple of days ago you needed to be alone, so i let you (She had had a fight with S1 a couple of days before departure and was in tears after he stormed out), and now that's what i need", so she said okay and i left. when i got back about 45 minutes later she was asleep. I prepped and got into bed and tried to cozy up to her some, but she was in an awkward position and had a bit of the pillow between us. Later i shifted over onto my back... she did not seek me out during the night as she has been prone to do recently when i'd roll away from her.

This morning we got up, she was warm, still kissed me good bye and said ILY... She called me from car on way to work and we talked some more, which is where i said "It wasn't all about not trusting you, and i shouldn't have implied that. A year ago? Yes... as far as i was concerned then it was my debt, my problem, and we might be splitting up so no reason for me to tell yoiu, none of your business, and i certainly didn't think it would help any reconcilliation process. More recently, though, i have wanted to tell you but haven't... seems like something always happens where you are "dreaming" or thinking about the future and i just didn't want to "squash" that.

We've talked again once since then. She seems a little reserved (things are hard at work right now, too, but i am sure she's pissed at/disappointed in me... who wouldn't be.) I told her this just reinforced with me that we should still be talking to MC and she said "yeah, i guess that would be okay." (Though she did not sound all that enthusiastic)

All thoughts welcome.

[SteveLW]

hoosjim, this is why lies and secrecy in a MR are never good. And worse, they never get better with time.

The one thing that stood out to me was you blamed:

- Not fully trusting her
- The system not making it easy

Hmmm.

First the first one is bunk. This was a secret you held from her LONG before the problems in the MR.

Second one is also bunk. You took risk, let it get out of hand, and haven't been able to dig out. It isn't the system. Otherwise all of us would be $50,000 in debt and not able to pay our way out.

The caution here is in you not OWNING it. You need to own up to it and take full responsibility for your situation. It has nothing to do with you not trusting her after the MR problems. it has nothing to do with the man holding you down.

Maybe this need to assign blame is something you should explore with your C. I remember getting a similar vibe from you in defending your decision to bug her room after you moved out. Explore whether or not this blame deflecting and justification defense mechanism is a common pattern. And then how to 180 on it.

[hoosjim]

hoosjim, this is why lies and secrecy in a MR are never good. And worse, they never get better with time.

So, coupla things: First, absolutely agree, and don't know who wouldn't. Cartainly my W and I are amongst those who now know that "no secrets, no lies" should be the first commandment of marriage.
So, preaching to the choir, here. As to specifics:

The one thing that stood out to me was you blamed:

- Not fully trusting her

"Blamed" is way off base here. I didn't "blame" anything, and i fairly quickly retracted/preempted with her the idea that i was blaming her. I made a conscious decision, and one that i would make again, 10 times out of 10, not to tell her the full truth of this while she was still in the throes of her affair and while things looked grim for us. And, I am convinced that i was right to do so. Our MR hung by a thread, and that, at that time, would have snapped it. Besides, as i noted previously, our MR was, for all intents and purposes, over. I was my own man and owed her nothing at that point.

As to owning up to my own responsibility, i have always done that, even way back when (though, no, i did not reveal the full extent of the damage to her). It has always been "on me" and "my eff up" and I take and have taken full responsibility for the actions that got us into that financial fix. I have also, in MC and to her, owned that my part in the downfall of our MR was ABSOLUTELY that i did not trust her and our relationship even from the beginning, and that i should have been fully open... we BOTH should have been fully open... and trusted in our love for each other and our relationship to get out of any messes TOGETHER. That i hid things as to scope is merely an additional facet of a pre-existing problem that we now, hopefully, are remedying.

So, yeah, i have "owned" it and have not blamed the man for "getting me here", nor have i blamed my wife for either a) "getting us here" or b) me not telling her.

Having said that...

The one thing that stood out to me was you blamed:- The system not making it easy

I have never blamed the system for getting me in this fix. Never. And i have repeated that to her (and to anyone else who has cared to listen) as recently as yesterday. However... That the system makes it harder to get out of debt when you are way IN debt is absolutely NOT, and never has been, "bunk" . Over the past few years i have gained a newfound sympathy for the truly poor, and even the working class blue collar folks who face such circumstances. I will not list all the ways as that would take a book and is outside the scope of these foirums, but I assure you it is the case. In addition to my own experiences, my mentor and first employer, a bankruptcy lawyer and trustee, set up a program not long ago to help the individuals he represented, precisely because it is so hard to navigate the maze of debt reduction successfully, and because he didn't want to see these folks again (folks he had helped to get a fresh start) in five years time in the same fix. Trust me.. the banks and card companies want to get you there and they want to keep you there and they have myriad processes in place to do so. Does any of that absolve me of responsibility for my predicament? No, of course not. But, then again, i never claimed that it did. Just that it pissed me off.