I am curious about the nature of this non-denominational congregation. Since I am a member of a non-denominational congregation myself. (I know that might reveal too much though.)
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
She has so much guilt (even more, now, since the A-- she's still not going to communion regularly) from her upbringing and things she's done in the past, that the message that she is ALREADY FORGIVEN, if she accepts that Christ and accepts that forgiveness would just be so freeing for her... the person she would/could be would be just amazing. I see glimpses of that person sometimes, the capacity for love and joy, but it is dampered by her guilt. OTOH, she is very, very, very Catholic.
I Jn. I:9 says that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. What a promise!!! She has to get her feelings of guilt out of the way, and focus on the promise and believe that God will do what He said He'd do. To believe in that one verse of scripture, requires faith. In other words, a person confesses (names the sin) and then by faith believes they are forgiven, based on God's own word. Christ was judged for those sins and He died for them. Some people try to add some type of works (good deeds, suffering, etc.) to get good enough to deserve forgiveness.......and that is not what the Word says. We can never become good enough, and that's why Christ died in our place, b/c He was the only acceptable sacrifice. Our part is "believing" that we are forgiven for Christ's sake. To believe that the work was done on our behalf and all we are required to do is accept it.
My heart goes out to your W, and how I wish she would seek spiritual counsel. If I had to guess, I'd say she has a problem with the forgiveness b/c she is thinking that God looks upon her and sees the sin she has committed. She sees herself as being unworthy of forgiveness by Holy God, and thinks that's how He sees her, as well. However, when God looks upon her, He sees where that sin has already been judged, and price has already been paid, and she is forgiven through Christ, His Son. In other words, when God looks at her, He sees her covered by the blood of Christ.
After my own EA, my biggest problem was forgiving myself. Considering what I've just said in the previous paragraphs, it sounds quite arrogant to say I couldn't forgive myself. However, I did struggle with it for a time. I thought I was doing okay until my mother passed away. The remorse returned and hit me so hard! It made the mourning period extra difficult for me. Less than a year later, my D passed away, and I experienced the same terrible feeling of regret. I had played an important role in both of their lives, and I felt I disappointed them greatly. If my H passes before I do......IDK how I'll get through it. I know I have been forgiven by God, and by my family. I just don't know that I will ever reach the point that I don't feel that deep remorse. It's not a daily thing, now, but it's still there.
I know what you mean by it would be so freeing for her, if she could accept Christ's forgiveness. I agree that it would free her, spiritually. I just don't know if that releases the feelings of regret. I once thought it did, but now I think there are some things we can do that we will always regret. I don't dwell on it. I don't beat myself up. But I still deeply regret it.
My concern for your W is how this ties in with her previous hangups about guilt, religion, good girl vs bad girl, etc. Her EA seems to have been added to her list of previous issues. Do you think her resentment is toward the Catholic teaching, or just religion in general?
As a footnote, I'm glad to hear things are still good. If you feel things slump, then think of something to do that may be unusual, funny, a bit out of character or the norm. You have to intentionally add some spice to the MR.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Sandi, I'm brand new to the Forums. I am dealing with a WW that just started. I was wondering if you would be willing to help me a little. I've read so many of your posts and feel like your talking to me already. Thanks in advance. Sorry if I am intruding. I just need help. Lane
ME 47 W 38 M17 T20 Separated 5/20/18 D-bomb 7/9/2018 Nothing Filed 4 kids ages 6, 10, 14, 15
It is a (near as i can tell) non-denominational, evangelically-oriented church that (again, near as i can tell) is either affilliated with that loose affilliation of churches known as the "Assemblies of God" or else borrows heavily from churches that are "members" of that affilliation. Unlike some other Assemblies of God churches, it does not purport on its website or elsewhere to be so affilliated and, in fact, it's "core beliefs" as listed on its webslte do not track exactly with some of the other AOG churches i have looked at. OTOH, its services have striking similarities both in structure and in approach (often to the point of mirroring), as do the names and organizations it uses for such things as children's Sunday School, to several Assemblies of God congregations and churches around the country that go by the identical name as does this church. Whatever. The exact "denomination" is not important to me other than as an academic curiosity-- their teachings are consistent with the bible and, in fact, they purport to be and to all appearances are a "Bible first" church. The pastor is a remarkable dude with a gift for relating scritpture in a manner that is easily understandable and that connects to folks and their real-life problems. Their mission statement is that they "exist so that people far from God will become fully alive in Christ."
If it matters, regionally, i live South of the Mason Dixon line in a major metropolitan area, though my precise zip code and surrounding counties would not be considered to be within what you would refer to as the "bible belt" (though i did grow up in such a location just three or so hours South of here.) The church itself is not (at least yet) in my near locality--- the nearest satellite campus (they have local campuses with local "campus ministers) where people go for service and then the main service with the church's senior pastor is transmitted to large video screens (unless you are in the town where the church is headquartered, in which case you would see the senior pastor's message in person, following that campus's campus pastor's message. "One church in many locations" is what they like to say, although all of the locations are within the same general region of my State, all within probably a one-hour radius of each other, possibly less. '
It's a neat place. Very uplifting.
Hope i haven't "outed" myself too specifically...
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
However, her phone log also showed her searching for the name of that pub and its location. I know, i know, prolly nothing and i shouldn't have been snooping. Still, not a big alarm bell-- she does not appear to have gone by there... but why do the search? FWIW i have gotten none of the vibes or cues i had gotten from her in the past when she had contacted or seen OM.
hi there, hoosjim... this here bothers me... especially when you add in all the other "tiny" things... i don't think it's okay that she didn't tell you she was going to comfort a friend... not that she needed to ask you, but to just let you know... it's only been about 4 months since the big debacle... the body image, the comments about OW... all of those things with the Google search may be nothing right now, but little by little, these things could lead to tiny steps toward things that are not good for your M... it's the "blurred lines" that can be dangerous...
have you two continued with MC? i suggest you get back in there if you have not been going... and i suggest that you suggest to her that she continue IC because of her self-esteem issues... she ought not fight you on this... and you ought not back down... don't become complacent hoosjim who is afraid to rock the boat... you are very early in the piecing stage... i would hate for this to fall into another "false start..." as always, mis dos centavos...
all of those things with the Google search may be nothing right now, but little by little, these things could lead to tiny steps toward things that are not good for your M... it's the "blurred lines" that can be dangerous...
And we had yet another little thing tonight. She had not stayed after work with her coworkers for wine, nor even asked to do so since the blow up... about four months as you note. Tonight, she did. She asked me well in advance (last week) because her coworkers, particularly the one girl she is close with, the somewhat devoutly christian one, had been asking her repeatedly. So I said "Okay". After all, I can't control her and my conditions from the Spring had been no staying after in the short to mid term. We seemed to be in a more trusting place now, so... But it seemed to fall into the old pattern fairly quickly. She said "I wont be staying too long" and then one of the doctors (THE doctor) got held up in the OR. So W and the other girl decided to leave (W told me this in 5:30 phoncon). Then the practice manager came in with some telecom emergency concerning a different doctor who was supposed to be on call, and that took them 45 minutes to get ironed out (she also called me about this and i saw the email traffic with practice manager on our shared email account, so all legit). By that time, it's 6:30 and tempers over there are running high. My W and her GF are getting ready to walk out to go get a drink at nearby pub when THE doctor calls from the OR and says he's headed back, bringing two people, man and woman, from the OR staff over as well to join the wine down. So W calls me again at 7 to tell me "its on again, i wont be staying long, an hour at the absolute longest because i want to get home to you guys". At 8:20 she calls me back "Okay, i"m leaving in no more than 5 minutes, wanted to call you and let you know" (I had not gotten worried or upset, at that point, as it's a 20 minute drive from her office, so she was not technically overdue at that point. Then.... 40, yes FORTY minutes later, at 9:00, she calls me, obviously a bit tipsy, and tells me she in parking garage getting into car. She keeps me on phone for a good part of the drive, being very flirty and suggestive and solicitous and "Cant wait to see you", etc. I play it cool, but talk while she wants to. She gets call from her aunt just shy of house so we say goodbye. She stays on phone with Aunt into house and for about 20 mins more, hanging out next to me, touching me, groping me, grabbing my hand, etc. I still play it cool and she looks hurt. Once she gets off phone she says "Are you mad at me?" And i explain that yes, I am. "This is your old pattern. I am not upset that you stayed after... remember we talked about this earlier and i said i thought it would be okay... and even okay if you wanted to volunteer info to the troubled doctor about our MC if you thought it might help, in the vein of our experience being able to help others. BUT.. what i am upset about is that, once again, you stretched out the evening away with your work friends WAY past where you originally said it would end, and, at the end, you stayed way past when you explicitly said you were coming home." OR some such words as that (I dont have a great photographic memory), She says she's sorry over and over, that she just lost track of time, couldnt see the clock, her phone was plugged in behind doctors desk (though she grants she could have just said "let me see my phone i need to call home" and, eventually, when she realized the time, she left. At first, she said "Well, i just stayed like 5 or possibly 10 minutes past when i said..." It was FORTY MINUTES!!!! She seemed legitimately surprised at this and i showed her my phone to emphasize it. Anyway, she apologizes more, we talk some more and she says she's surprised i can like her so much, as "squishy" as she is right now (body image again). Last things she says are "Maybe we should just take every time i say and add 30 minutes to it" and then "No matter how late i am, I'll always come home to you."
At least this time it was a fairly big crowd, not just her and GF and the good doctor. OTOH, same doctor offered up, nearly unsolicited, personal info about his own MR just last week. W asked him "hows it going?" and he replied "Oh, you know, we have good days and bad days" referring to his W as he further explained when my W asked. (As a reminder, his W is apparently an alcoholic who is not currently interested in seeking treatment... one reason he keeps all the wine at his office, so he can drink without tempting his W and implicating her alcoholism.) Now, i have in fact recently told W that i think we should use our experiences to help others, even this doctor and his W, both of whom my W considers friends, but... I still get an itchy feeling about this doctor and his "friendship" with my W. I almost wish he would make an ill-timed move so she could see it for what (I think) it is but... ah well.
Quote
have you two continued with MC? i suggest you get back in there if you have not been going... and i suggest that you suggest to her that she continue IC because of her self-esteem issues... she ought not fight you on this... and you ought not back down... don't become complacent hoosjim who is afraid to rock the boat... you are very early in the piecing stage... i would hate for this to fall into another "false start..." as always, mis dos centavos...
we have discussed it and she is willing. just havent had the time with kids getting read for college and vacation and loan applications and etc etc. We really need to, though, i think.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
HJ, likely this was the "tipsy-ness" coming out. Which is one of hundreds of reasons that I am pretty staunchly anti-alcohol. But I won't get off on that diatribe since it would be unsolicited. I will say that I am not a huge fan of people drinking then getting behind the wheel. But I will leave that there.
Yes she needs to see and understand that SAYING WORDS have meaning. And I would have come down pretty hard on the "let's just add 30 minutes to whatever I say" thing. Sorry, but that sounds like a teenager breaking curfew. The real issue is that you need to be able to TRUST her. If she says 5-10 minutes, and 40 minutes later is just now leaving, then what else is she leaving out? More than likely nothing, but after your recent history she needs to be trustworthy in all dealings. Otherwise you can't be faulted to think the worst.
I was on record as saying she should quit that job to get away from THE doctor. This is why.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
hoosjim, you need to nip this in the bud... i know this pattern... you won't like what i am going to say, but i am going to say it... she knows what she is doing when she strings you along as she stretches the time spent at the wine downs... i believe she had no control over it starting late... but she had control over how he handled it... she should have said, "sorry folks--i'll catch you next time... i need to be home with my family... i promised i would be home by X-o'clock." no excuses...
the red flag is how she tries to manipulate you... she knows she is "blurring the line," and to try to get away with it, she flirts with you... gropes you... you are wise to her, so you don't respond... she then "throws dirt and ashes on herself " (a biblical term) by referring to herself as "squishy." i know you are more concerned with her squishy boundaries than any squishy-ness of her body... you are way too early in your piecing to let these things go... you need to get back on track... see that MC now... if this derails again there may be no more "family time and family vacations..." your M is the priority...
hoosjim, you need to nip this in the bud... i know this pattern... you won't like what i am going to say, but i am going to say it... she knows what she is doing when she strings you along as she stretches the time spent at the wine downs... i believe she had no control over it starting late... but she had control over how he handled it... she should have said, "sorry folks--i'll catch you next time... i need to be home with my family... i promised i would be home by X-o'clock." no excuses...
the red flag is how she tries to manipulate you... she knows she is "blurring the line," and to try to get away with it, she flirts with you... gropes you... you are wise to her, so you don't respond... she then "throws dirt and ashes on herself " (a biblical term) by referring to herself as "squishy." i know you are more concerned with her squishy boundaries than any squishy-ness of her body... you are way too early in your piecing to let these things go... you need to get back on track... see that MC now... if this derails again there may be no more "family time and family vacations..." your M is the priority...
--artista
WOW. Very well stated and analyzed.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
