Friends: Season 2--The air has cleared

[merrick]

Last night at my Church group, I was thinking about just letting go, leaving, dropping legal objections, and just trusting God to deliver me to the right answer. However, knowing my rashness, I did not want to see W and visted my BIL (of W's sis) down the street to watch some games until I safely assumed W would be asleep. I also did not see W this morning as I went out the back when she came from the gym (trust me--no contact right now is the right thing to do).

This morning, the pendulem started swinging back the other way.

Pretty soon, his attempts were being thwarted by not giving him what he wanted. If the other person is not joining in the drama, pretty soon the drama fizzles out. Just consider yourself a firefighter, walking around constantly with a pail of water, broom and dustpan....

Wow!!! That's exactly why I feel I should not move out of my house. Tonight when I have more time I am going to read every crazymaker thread. When i think about it, my W has been telling me that she is going to fall apart/slit her wrists/be crushed for ten years!!!!!! And she is still standing. If I leave, will any of this change? What will be the next stage for drama. I have to remeber that while I contributed to our mess--where we are tonight is not my fault and the only question before me is what will make W and the lives of our children better? She feels it is a Sep without MC; I'm not convinced. But I still don't have an answer .

[merrick]

Wow. No sooner than I post, W calls me to ask about what I was doing tonight. Is this crazymaking?

I said you were planning to take D6, D8, and girls cousins to dinner while S9 went to boy cousin and you didn't want to wait for me.

W says, "That's right." But boy cousin's mom (SIL who pressures W on MC) said he would feel left out, so W agrees to take him and S9--but that's too many kids for our van. So W wants to know when I can come home so we can take two cars, knowing that I would never get home by the time she wants to go out. I tell her the earliest I could get home (Putting aside finishing my work that this BB delayed :grin-- I rely on subways to reach my commuter trains, which requires advance planning and to make sure I provide enough cushion to make my commuter train).

W then "rants" -- this is why my life stinks. I just want to try to enjoy myself without any tension, but it's impossible. I try to please everyone and screw myself. And every person wants to judge me because our life is an open book (inferring that my reaching out to her family before DBing puts pressure on her) --when I sh*t, when I eat--everyone has an opinion. I can't enjoy anything--especially birthdays, Mother's Day, Father's Day--and I just can't. I have to be perfect. So when are you going to get home???!!! I said I could meet her at the restaurant as she earlier proferred, and she screamed, "THAT'S NOT WHAT I ASKED YOU!!!!"

She then said I'll figure it out myself and if I wait and you get here, fine. I said, "OK!" " and she hung up.

So I ask again. Is this a form of crazymaking?

Merrick

[seattlehopeful]

sounds like she wants attention to me, this is what i've been trying to say all along. she does these things to say look at me look at me, look at me you !@#$%^&&*()+ and her head starts spinning.

it is easy to get the deer in headlights look, but if you look beyond that, look deeper, there are some common needs everyone has. i know you've said she doesn't want a hug from you, what was it about believing nothing you hear? i'm not saying to do it immediately, but good timing. when she is at her most vicious, i mean her most vicious, what do you think her needs are? ladies, am i way off base?

[Briget]

Merrick I'm not so sure your wife is a crazy maker.I mean she never seems to really get what to the point.

I mean when I was doing this I had a goal.Not a planned out goal but I wanted attention and when I got it I settled

I don't see where she is settling down.

I think she has an addiction to anger.For what ever reason she has for keeping you at arms length this is her form.

I would think she is putting up this wall of anger and it is a wall of Jherrico.Now if you could march around it and knock id down that would be wonderful

i don't know if she has reasons for her anger that come from your relationship or from her past.

Me I think I was born angry.

But if she is a crazy maker I think it is a new form.

I don't see what she is getting out of this.I know I could only do the angry thing for so long and if it wasn't working I wold go on to something else.

I'm also the queen of bad pranks. (once filled a turkey baster up with vinagar when he fell asleep in the middle of a conversation and squirted it in his snoring mouth.I felt insulted he fell asleep while I was talking.

I know that was bad but after he got over being mad he thought it was funny.

I'm not sure this is helping.

Maybe she is getting something out of her behavior.but what is a good question.

I wish I had the answer.You would think I would since I am a crazymaker.

Later Friend.
Briget

[Underdog]

Hi Merrick,

My gut instinct is to say no, this is not an example of crazymaking (maybe crazy, though). Your W may be a crazymaker too.

Right now, I don't know if she knows what she wants from you. So what means would crazymaking serve? If she wouldn't know what she wanted, how would she know if she was or wasn't receiving it from you?

Again, this is a disclaimer, because she may indeed be a crazymaker.

Personally, I think (based on your past posts) that no matter what you offered, she wouldn't have liked what you had to say. If you agreed to do things her way right off the bat, I really don't see her saying to you, "Wow, Merrick. That's exactly what I need from you. I appreciate your cooperation."

She'd probably have said something along the lines of, "I know why you're doing this, and it isn't going to work. Why can't you just accept what I feel and leave me the F@#$ alone?"

Regardless of the label, I think you probably have the best defense: just keeping quiet and ducking out of the limelight for now.

Seattle, I don't know if the rest of us can truly understand where his W is in her head. At my most vicious, I was receptive to a hug and wanted to communicate with Mr. Wonderful. I was really angry with him, but I wanted to understand things.

But I'll leave that question open for anyone else who has thoughts on the subject.

Hey, Merrick, don't you have a train to catch?

[merrick]

Alright Seattle-

For years, when W got this way, I tried to reassure her that everything was okay and give her a hug. She replied, "That's not what I need and push me away!!!!" When I got assertive with the kids to relive pressure, she said I was too harsh. She might say she was sorry later, it was the stress of the day, PMS, hormones, whatever. Unfortunately, after a while, I just gave up. Rather then walk away, I accepted this as my fate in life and hoped it would get better once the kids were older and she got back into the workforce. I focussed onother things.

She got very angry at me--thinking that I have the perfect life (literally her words) and that I would finally appreciate her when she left. But I always appreciated her--I just didn't show it the way she needed or wanted. THAT is why OM was able to come in--and now she is struggling with with the guilt of that situation and the judgment it leads to.

What she really needs from me is to feel safe--and sadly, a Sep or D with my leaving causes this R to be adversarial then I want to. Right now, my intermittant threats are the number one thing I need to avoid--but I feel I have been put in a box. This is the heart my longstanding ambivalence on separation. Right now, I think the only thing that could make her feel safe are my actions. I think this is why Laurie says it is better for me to walk away than to engage--if I can do it an a way that says I don't want to hurt you.

Oops, sorry to steal your thread Betsy. Maybe I'll start my own new one: Coping with a LIWAW Crazymaker!

[Underdog]

Hey bud,

This is a community thread. Did you see the COMMUNE sign over the top? Everyone drops in here at our apartment as they please. That makes you welcome here.

I'm going hand the mike over to Seattle now....

[karen812]

I was going to say, "Yes! Definitely!!" I guess from my POV, it helps when h just listens calmly w/o getting defensive. If your w indicates that she does not want a hug and to hear it will be ok, perhaps (like the example in the book about the depressed h), she just wants to be HEARD and UNDERSTOOD. I realize that you will never understand hormones, etc., but just to feel validated is sometimes what I feel like screaming for.

H really started to not let the fights get out of control. He would not react. (He hates to fight too). My shrinkologist told him to say, "you are being irrational," but I didn't think that helped very much.

Sounds like your w is very confused and does not know what she wants. Sorry, I don't know your sitch, so I don't want to jump to conclusions, but what HAS she asked for? What has she complained about not getting, etc?

Walking away to me is the WORST thing my h could do (that just reinforces the fear of abandonment and would REALLY REALLY make me freak out.) Perhaps if you can say something like, "i see that you are upset. If you can *fill in the blank-de-escalate*, I will talk with you. If not, then I think we need to separate for a little while so you can *chill* PC: sort out what you are thinking/feeling." If I hear, "calm down," I only get more infuriated.

But, sometimes h can ask me, "don't you think you are being irrational/making this a bigger deal than it is?" and I can calm MYSELF down and say yes and *try* to be more rational. (But, this took us a long time!!) slowly, slowly, keep swimming, keep swimming...

karen812

[karen812]

We didn't mean to reduce you to tears with this stuff!

-Betsey

the greatest person I have ever known! He's my frickin' pillar of strength

-me
I meant kinda happy tears, talking about how great my h is!

Last night I TOTALLY bit my tongue and didn't do the "what's wrong/are you ok?" thing. We went to see his mom in the hosp., then decided to go out for pizza. It took us both a while to make a decision. I offer to cook since we both have said that we need to eat at home more b/c we spend too much $ eating out. At din, I tried to engage convo. about 6 times. Asking questions, mind you. I got one word answers. I wanted to start something and yell at him-" You could ask ME some questions! I thought you were going to work on conversing too!" But, I bit my tongue, was patient. Eventually he started to talk more and we had a good convo.

Went home, I took a shower, went to read, he came to bed, we snuggled. I had to force myself not to expect ML and to be happy w/snuggling. (For those of you who don't know, I'm the male & he's the female as far as sex goes. He wants to like get along, and trust each other, and have a nice r...I just want the icing on the cake, Dude!!)

thanks for listening. Guess I'm kind of hijacking since that's what Janice does.

this post has been great! Printing to take home and study.
so, i'm keeping the same two goals for tonight-not to ask those q's and not to put "pressure" (as HE sees it) for sex.
karen812

[seattlehopeful]

i can understand what you've all written above and i do not have the advantage of knowing her as well as you. i can only give you my thoughts. i have really been trying to understand our beautiful and delicate female friends and how they relate to us as men.

i have noticed time and again how the need for attention is so strong, somthing we men just don't get, not to the same degree. often times i have seen women crazymaking to gain attention, when we men respond we are often times TOLD they don't want attention, yada yada. even pushed away or they run away. is THIS when no really means yes? i really think so. she may not want this, only you know.

our obvious response, to not do what we were just TOLD not to do. this works well with logical minds. i'm not saying women don't have logical minds. i'm saying this mindset is not logical. role reversal is frequent and this also applies to many WAH.

she definitely has anger. no question about it. as i look at posts above that admit to anger venting, even if it is due to some past reason (often trying to get daddys attention) they are all cries for attention. why do you get angry? YOU feel YOU are wronged and YOU want whatever.

only you know her best. look deep within her. what does she really want and need? what has she always wanted and needed? these likely won't ever change. respond to those needs. i wouldn't ever walk away from her when she is like that. imho, unless you feel like you are going to explode and you need to do it for you. i understand the not feed the fire concept, does she get angrier after you do that or less? short term? long term?

you've been doing this for a really long time and have tried many things. not trying to sound preachy at all. try looking from it from a beginners mind, basic levels on up instead of surface on down. only you know her.