I didn't get much action in Newcomers, and maybe I don't belong there. I'll repost much of what I said there, as this may be the forum I should be in. I'm not anywhere near divorcing, that I know of, we've never been separated, but as my subject line says, I'm feeling pretty low about my marriage. I've read MANY of Michele's books, and am familiar with the advice, but I just don't know how to apply it in my situation.
And I know that to get advice, you gotta be on other people's threads, but I feel silly giving anyone anything other than support. I haven't been through a divorce or separation, and things look pretty okay here. If you're not actually in it, that is!
I've lurked on this board for over a year, and simply thought I didn't fit in here. I know I'm in a situation that many of you all would find wonderful. I'm not separated, not divorcing, not not having sex, heck, we're not even fighting all that much. [As I reread this, it seems rambly, to me, and for that I apologize in advance.]
But my marriage has undergone more than its share of body blows, and I have GOT to get some advice on things I can do to help or change it, or else I'm going to have more and more problems with my "get outta Dodge" fantasies.
Short history, so you'll know where I'm coming from. I've been married to the Cat in the Hat for almost 13 years. We have Thing 1, who's 9, Thing 2, who's 4, and Thing 3, who's 2. I stay home and rear them, he works.
Almost immediately upon our marriage, my sex drive simply disappeared. We were both pretty surprised, as our sex life had been hot, hot, hot before we got married. And this wasn't a kind of gradual disappearance. We joke that I said, "I do," and then almost immediately said, "Oh, no I don't."
At any rate, we kept together and I kept saying it wasn't anything I'd done consciously. It was as though something had happened to me from the outside, or as though I'd had some kind of brain surgery. But the message Cat got was that I didn't love him anymore, which is understandable.
So time went on, and after Thing 1's birth, well hey, I started to get my body back. Not like before we were married, but the idea of intimacy didn't horrify me any more.
With each child, oddly enough, our sex life has improved. Whatever the reason for my freaky change, and he and I think we know "why," in psychological terms, I changed, I'm changing back. But for him, either the pain of the years -- only four, really, with that great change in our sex life, or the disappointment that we're not back where we started, is something he brings up in fights, in regular conversations, etc.
So it's as though I can't have any legitimate disappointments or criticisms, because, hey, he stayed with me when I rejected him so I ought to cut him some slack. Literally any time I express something like, "I'd like you to not swear at me when we're having a fight," he says something like, "Why should you get what you want when I don't get what I want?" But when I ask what he wants, he'll come up with "I want to be able to do what I want, without you criticizing me." Great in theory. But we have a family that needs cooperative work! What he wannts to do isn't terrible -- he doesn't want to spend all our money or have affairs -- but he doesn't want to have to do anything for the kids _unless he wants to_, and he doesn't want to have to adjust his schedule for anyone _unless he wants to_. Oh, I don't know. . . sorry. I know there's something to work with here, but I don't know where to start. Oh, and in the above conversation, he said, "I want to swear if I want to." Okay, but how can I say to him in a way he'll understand, "I don't want to live in a marriage that has that as an okay behavior"? He always comes back with, "I don't get what I want sexually now; I didn't leave you when you wouldn't have sex with me; why should you get to dictate terms?" There is no way to get past it that I see. I ask for forgiveness, I tell him I wish I'd done things differently, I try very very hard to be sexual with him now. . . no good when the chips are down.
Revealingly the other day, we were talking about housework or something, and he said, "Ever since we had kids, you've been dissatisfied with what I do in the marriage." And I thought, "Well, no kidding!" Because if his great disappointment is that our sex life wasn't what was implicitly promised, my great disappointment, which is ongoing, is that he's nothing like the father and second parent I'd hoped for. Our three little things love him to pieces, but he's barely there for them. If they ask him directly for a hug or a book read to them, he might, but if they jump on him and love on him, he yells, "Get off of me!" and it just breaks my heart. In the nine years of having children, he's taken them out only one morning to a park so I could sleep in. When I'm sick, I still have to do all the childcare/feeding/loving etc., because he just won't do it. His philosphy seems to be benign neglect, but we have children who want an active person. And when things are stressful, like now with a two and four year old who are really active and demanding, he says he doesn't like the way they behave, but the only thing he can think of to do is hit them, and since I won't let him do that. . . And when we were talking about it yesterday, he said that he didn't think modifying environments with things like locks and door latches so they could grow out of stages where they can't stop getting into the things they oughtent wasn't teaching them, even though he agrees it works. So when I asked if he had any other ideas, he said, "No, and I'm not going to research anything!"
Oh, and I had a surprise pregnancy in December, and after one of the ugliest fights we'd ever had, I terminated the pregnancy, even though I'd told myself I never ever would AND I wanted a fourth child, even though I'm pretty overwhelmed by three. I decided that another child would probably sink the marriage irrevocably and that I couldn't in good conscience give another child a father I wouldn't give a dog. And now, of course, I just die over it. If I had it to do again, I'd make a completely different choice, and damn the consequences. I've never felt so guilty and self-loathing about any choice I've made.
So, what do I want? I want him to actually want to do things with us. I know I should go and do happy things without him until he misses us, but quite frankly, sometimes I'd like a break from the chilluns. And I'm physically tired, too. And if we go too long away from him, he gets angry. He wants us here, but he doesn't want us to bother him. Family wallpaper, maybe? The ugly fight in December was because I'd taken the kids away for a relative visit for two weeks. AND he'd agreed to it, but the reality was it was too long for him so he got mad and nasty.
I'd like him to have some softness or thoughtfulness towards me. Our marriage works well on a business level, but it's like I'm with someone who wants me sexually, but just doesn't care that much about me, at least not enough to do anything that would put him out much, like agreeing with me that a night out a week would help recharge me for my 24/7 job of rearing our children.
His parenting is killing my love for him. It's just that he's not really a kind or nice person any more, if he ever was. I married him in part because I thought he'd be a great parent. He was so good to his dog! But now he doesn't even take ours for walks, let alone the kids. It's as though we are both so steeped in disappointment that we just can't connect any more. Our "we" is gone, and it's every person for himself at our house. Except for the fact that I have three little persons who need help.
This is the only place I can think of that might be a source of ideas for things I could do to make the changes happen that I need to not want to flee my marriage.
So, advice, criticism, suggestions, questions welcomed. Thanks. FIS
Hmmm...well, first off, welcome. Sorry that you find yourself here but seems like there's lots to work with!
You mention that you've read lots of Michele's books. Good. Seems as though the principles will definitely apply. Have you tried to take them step by step? (I'm a pretty logical sort so bear with me!) I'm thinking of DR in particular...what's the first step? Start with a beginner's mind? Have you written down those ASSumptions of h and m that might be blocking you...then moved onto step 2, etc?
We DID have some threads here that addressed it step by step...but that was before I lost my steam. Now I'm signed up for the KLA group:
Have you read the Five Love Languages? That would be where I would begin this journey. If you can identify your H’s, and start fulfilling his “love tank” as they call it in the book, I think it may help.
From an outsider’s prospective, it seems that both of you have underlying anger with each other and are passively showing it every chance you get. He knows that you want and to ‘get you back’ he does the opposite of what you want. Children, swearing issue, helping around the house – all of those are his passive-aggressive methods of telling you that he is driving this boat. Case in point, the fact that he doesn’t adjust his schedule unless he wants to – total control!
He also sounds insecure. He doesn’t want you to leave him, yet he is indifferent to the family when it is around. I think that what we perceive as indifference is his fear.
As the mother of a four year old and a 20 month old…I know how frustrating things can be. And all of us go through the times when we’d gladly sell them off to any passing gypsies. Heightened by you because you are there with them all day every day, and heightened by him because he simply doesn’t know what to do with them!
Some advice:
1. Read “the five love languages”
2. Develop routines, and stick to them. He’ll get a sense of structure for what happens throughout the day and will know what to expect.
3. Encourage him to join in activities, but don’t become angry when he doesn’t. Soon he will see that he isn’t getting to you by not responding.
4. Take care of you. I can’t stress that enough! Even if it is while your toddlers are napping, do something that you enjoy that relaxes you. By taking control of your happiness, you relieve him of that burden.
5. Cut your hair, buy some clothes, do something that boosts your self-esteem and gives him something to notice.
6. Unless he sends your children to play in rush hour traffic while drinking household cleaners, try not to criticize his parenting. You know it sucks, we know it sucks and chances are, HE knows it sucks. But you are only making him feel worse by pointing those things out. Vent here, and then when you have a sense of what works and what doesn’t, you can bring these things to light with him.
7. Set some goals, for yourself and for your marriage. Include the phrase from the DR book “when I do this…he does this…” or whatever that phrase is!
"It is not easy to find happiness in ourselves, and it is not possible to find it elsewhere."
--Agnes Repplier, writer and historian
Welcome. I think I posted to you up in newcomers, so I'm sorry if I missed your posts in between my soirees out of town.
First of all, you realize that we absolutely CANNOT focus on your H. We're working with you. And you can and should be the impetus to change the dynamics in your R with him.
You know what? I might have been what outsiders considered a good mother before Mr. Wonderful left, but the fact is, he and I know that HE was--by far-- the better parent to our girls.
But the truth is that the root of our problems went a whole lot deeper than our parenting styles.
The fact is that we both withheld what we knew the other person needed. We held on to resentments and anger and bitterness--all of which was reflected in how we communicated (or didn't communicate) with each other.
I'm not out to call you wrong, or ungrateful or trying to invoke guilt for seeming to have it better than some of us. The truth is actually that you are not. Your M is crumbling, Fox, and I sense that you know this.
We all had to begin somewhere, and my world came crashing down pretty much at the point where you are right now.
The fact is that YOU are in a position to change before one of you leaves. This means what you do, say and think is critical.
Just reading your post makes me very uncomfortable. Not because I'm a judging person. But because seeing your present reality is so painfully close to my former reality that it hurts. Your words are filled with resentment and anger, and right now, I sense that you are blaming him for how you feel.
The fact is that nothing he does or says can MAKE you feel that way. You choose this.
I'm not saying you are not entitled to your feelings or that they are wrong. But what you DO know is that something has to give. You realize that it is tearing you and your H apart and someone must make that first step.
Neither of you are right--which also means that neither of you are wrong.
Resentment occurs when we are not taking care of our own needs, Fox. How can we expect our spouse to put any importance on that if we are not willing to do it for ourselves?
What things can you do that are reasonable and not too demanding to help you feel more centered? Scheduling lunch with a friend? A facial? A massage? A walk? Scheduling a date with your H?
My SIL told me a long time ago that when I feel like I need to run away from my H, THOSE are the times to run toward him. Could it be that you've been running from him so long that you are scared to run toward him?
Please don't take my post as a beating. We're here to help. Good luck.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
I'm going to respond to your post in my very best Dr. Laura voice.
First, are you your kids mom? LOL sorry, but her callers always seem to start with that. Anyway, here's my 2 cents worth so you're getting what you paid for.
Being a 'stay at home' mom is, in and of itself, a wonderful benefit to your children and you're to be commended for that....however, in this day and age it's absolutely NOT uncommon for H's that are the soul financial support of the family to become resentful of thier 'role' in the relationship. And it's not unusual for 'stay at home' moms to become resentful of the fact that they are burdened with 99% of the childcare and household responsibilities. Secretly, both spouses envy the position the other spouse is in with out ever taking the reality of those 'positions' into account.
In your H's mind, he believes that since he is supporting you and his 3 small children that that contribution to your marriage should grant him certain privileges like sex, words of appreciation, a little 'cave time' for himself and a day out with his buddies on occassion. Weekends to your H are NOT days that he looks forward to finally be able to spend time mowing the lawn, hanging pictures, bouncing the kids on his knee or entertaining your mother. To HIM, weekends are the time he looks forward to chillin out, forgetting about the demands of his job, his idiot boss, his slacker of a coworker or the project deadline he's facing next week. He wants to plop down on the couch and go zombie with the remote control in his hand as he dozes off between quarters. He wants the kids to be quiet, the house to be relatively tidy and YOU to be happy JUST because he's THERE.
YOU on the other hand, are anxiously awaiting his arrival home at night so that you can sit and chat with him about his day, or complain about yours, or ANY conversation that gives you a chance to talk with an ADULT. You want him to want to play with the kids, read them a book or give them a bath so that you can have a few (well deserved) minutes to yourself.
You and your H are actually quite typical...but YOU have the advantage of seeing the cracks that are developing in your relationship so YOU need to take the bull by the horns and initiate the necessary changes.
If you're tired and need a break from the kids, get a sitter twice a week, if ONLY for an hour or two so you can leave the house and take a walk, go to the mall or run errand without the kids in tow. Want to spend an evening with your husband? Make the arrangements yourself, don't set your husband up for failure by waiting and waiting for HIM to do it. A great deal of your disatisfaction with your marriage is well within your control.
I'd suggest reading the book, "The Five Love Languages" and if your H is a reader, offer it to him when you're finished. You'll be amazed at the changes that can take place in your relationship when you both understand what you need to have your emotional needs met AND how to meet the emotional needs of each other. T2
I second what T2 has written, the same thing went on in our marriage, H wanted me to work very badly, but never told me directly himself, until he left. I felt burdened enough and thought if I took on more work, he would do EVEN less around the house than I felt he was doing anyway. After all, HE had weekends for eight years, I didn't!
And yes, he 'confided' in my friend (who became HIS "dear friend") about his hard lot. This is the friend that I had exchanged confidences with over the years, when we both compared how lazy our Hs were - when our children vomited in the night, it was always US that got up to clean the mess and deal with the sick child, EVEN when we were sick ourselves and our Hs weren't..... you get the picture.
Get these things sorted out soon, before it eventually drives you apart.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
Wow. Thanks for all the response! Sage, I remember you from when I first found the board. Betsey, thanks for finding me here, too. I haven't been so good about following up either.
I think Underdog/Betsey is right. My marriage is crumbling. And I KNOW that I can do something about it. That's why I'm here. No one in my real life is willing to hear about baby steps or plans of action or call me accountable when I'm not doing what I need to do.
So. . . my plans so far are to say something positive about his parenting every day, because there is something positive about it every day. On the other hand, I need to not say anything negative about it. Hard, hard, hard. My one wise real life friend says, "It's tiring always being the one to do the right thing, isn't it?"
T2, you may be right in your analysis. I'm trying to just take deep breaths when he only wants to talk about his work, hide with his face on the TV, etc. I don't think, Livnlearn, that he actually wants me to go out and get a job, BUT he certainly doesn't want to hear squat about how hard my life is. That said, I'm always kind of poking around for part-time work. Oh! I have to fax my resume to a college near here. They called yesterday.
While I really, really, really do understand the thinking behind "I need to veg after a hard work week," please tell me at some point he will come out of it if I support him enough. Surely anyone with an ounce of feeling would miss his kids as PEOPLE eventually? Because, to tell you the truth, I'm not sure I can make it without some kind of reassurance. Look, I grew up with a dad who wanted wallpaper children, and I don't want my children to have that. (On the other hand, Thing 1 is starting to really like watching baseball with her dad, and he said directly how happy that made him. Now she gets to stay up late to watch games with him and they read the sports page together.)
So, I'm going to put up some flyers for babysitters today. My sister is coming over to watch the kids for me and I'm going to the community college. I agree that some break time during the week would help.
And routines, yep, that's on my list too : ) Moving to a new place -- closer to the Cat's work -- threw them pretty hard.
I'm trying to lard my family with positive responses and "sandwich" any requests or complaints with lots of praise around them.
I'm going to try to check out your threads, guys. Thanks and I agree -- I'm in a place to stop this breakup before it starts.
Quote: My one wise real life friend says, "It's tiring always being the one to do the right thing, isn't it?"
Meredith grabbed my attention last fall when I was debating this issue and said, "Bets, let God take care of fair. You take care of right."
And amen, sister! It IS difficult.
I think T2 hit on some really great things that should not be overlooked. I view each of you as desperately needing and wanting validation.
The Cat wants to hear from the Fox: "Honey, I appreciate you working so hard to provide for our family. I want you to be happy here at home. What can I do to make you feel more loved?"
You want to hear from the Cat: "Sweetie, did I ever tell you how much I appreciate the fact that you gave up a career to take care of the kids? I know that your life is tedious and boring sometimes and you just want me to listen to you when I feel like doing that as much as I love going to the dentist. You totally rock!"
This isn't impossible, Stef. It just takes time to turn that ship around and get it in the right direction.
Have you tried the steps in DR to start navigating there? Doing or saying specific things and then logging his responses? See which things positively push his buttons and which ones don't seem to do the trick?
I have a notebook full of tidbits of information I jotted down when I asked Mr. Wonderful questions or observed his reactions to something I had done or said a few days before. It was enlightening!
I also endorse the 5LL and Mars/Venus. M/V helps us understand our fundamental differences. The 5LL give you an idea of what you need from others and what others need from you. And how you express your love and why it is often overlooked (because that's not what the person needs from you).
For instance, Mr. Wonderful performs Acts of Service for others to show his love and appreciation. But he receives in Words of Affirmation (and this has taken me over a year to figure out, as I thought he received in Acts). Well, I'm a Words of Affirmation person, so it's not hard to figure out why I wasn't appreciative of all his yard work, etc. I felt unloved and he felt unappreciated.
Just doing something for them that they want can make a huge difference.
Let's go back to this:
Quote: While I really, really, really do understand the thinking behind "I need to veg after a hard work week," please tell me at some point he will come out of it if I support him enough.
Well, you won't know for quite some time... after a lot of effort and willpower on your part. There is no reason to think that he won't be generous with you if you are generous with him, is there?
It all goes back to the resentment issue. Stef, if you are taking care of your own needs, this won't be such a burr under your saddle. If you are doing the little things that fill your own tank, this resentment will subside.
For instance, I used to feel REALLY resentful of Mr. Wonderful's seemingly constant weekends away for various golf tournaments or fishing trips. It wasn't that he didn't deserve them (quite the contrary). But I felt that, because I wasn't getting the same thing.
I felt victimized by his departure--leaving me with 2 little kids (one of them developmentally disabled) and worse? He would NEVER call me just to say hi or tell me he got where he was going. I felt abandoned, unloved and very much unappreciated.
So when he walked through the door upon his return, he found a sullen (if not hostile) me. And I was NOT happy to see him, I had "put up" with the kids with no rest all weekend, and no fricking call from him! Every time he left, it became a real battle. He knew what would HELP me not go off (to call), but he withheld that from me because he felt controlled. UGH.
Looking back (which is a wonderful but useless tool), I see the real reason I was so unhappy with his trips: I wasn't doing the same thing for myself. I was sitting around waiting for him to hand me a hotel reservation and airline tickets, and he wasn't about to do that.
Really, why should he have? I felt victimized because I didn't say, "Mr. W., I'm feeling the need to get a break myself." I know he would have agreed, so why didn't I just do it? Because I'm sure it was a whole lot easier to play the martyr (I have great role models in that one).
As a friend later told me, "Bets, get down from the cross now. We need the wood!"
I make sure I schedule all sorts of fun things for myself. Tonight I have a date with myself to get caught up at home since I've been out of town a whole lot in the past 2 months. I'm finishing laundry, and have a date with a book in the process. We're separated, and this is Mr. Wonderful's night with the kids... anyway, I'm really looking forward to putzing around the house with no plans.
I'd give it all up to have my family back under one roof, Fox. But I had to lose it all to appreciate it. I am positive you don't have to go this far to get what you want.
So, you probably have figured out that I'm a goal driven person. I work best with some specific guidelines to follow until they become second nature. Keep a journal to keep track of the times when you feel good--write down why you feel that way. Log why you feel edgy or unhappy. I'll be willing to wager a whole lot of money that you'll start pinpointing some very specific dynamics that cause you to feel this way.
Half of every problem is figuring out what the problem is.
If you had to put yourself in Cat's shoes, what do you think he thinks is your biggest problem (in his eyes, which is truth to him and probably at least partially true from a neutral perspective)?
I'll go first: Mr. Wonderful told me that I had a horrid temper, I jumped to conclusions and I got defensive when he tried to talk to me. I told him that he was projecting. His perception turned out to be the absolute truth.
So, what do you feel he thinks is the biggest obstacle in his R with you?
I'll be back later. Time to pay bills...
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Woo hoo! Lovely day so far. Last night, my H was pretty upset about something at work. I listened to him and made general sympathetic noises. Then he dealt really well with an upsetting incident with Thing #2. Then the two older Things weren't being too cooperative about going to bed, and I was getting antsy because I wanted to spend some special time with their dad. Instead, I kept doing the "go to bed" routine. I complimented him on how well he dealt with her, and said I liked to hear him read to them. Dropped a quick kiss on his head, and left him alone.
Sometime during the evening, I asked him if he were interested in being intimate, and he hesitated. I said, "Are you just not interested?" and he said, "No, right now I'm not."
Well, nothing like a challenge, huh? So I went upstairs later and got on some provocative clothing and came back downstairs (punctuated by "Go to bed, go to bed, yes you can have a drink, go to bed. . ."). Then I sat down in the chair next to him and said nothing. Just started reading, too.
Well, he noticed. Then we started laughing about the kids uncooperative behavior. He pointed out that he just wasn't interested at the MOMENT I asked. Then I performed a routine to "Take me out to the Ball Game" just for his enjoyment, and that was that.
What did I learn? Well, it helped that I would have been okay even if he had only noticed what I was wearing and still not been interested.
It helped that I didn't get involved with him and our four year old's trouble.
It helped that I could listen to his problem and not go on and on. . . just hear what he wanted to say. He also had lots more to say this morning.
So then, today, we took all the kids to a street fair and parade in town. They behaved beautifully, we got time together and everyone had enough together to be apart when we got home. I took a nap -- always needful -- and now he's napping.
I also know not to suggest anything else social for the weekend. He's had enough.
So, I feel as though I'm paying attention to what I'm doing and gauging the effect, without being consumed by wondering what's going on inside of him.
Now I'm signed up for the KLA group:
