WAW - Managing Limbo Period Pt 2

[40free]

Previous thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2800994&#Post2800994

Just reposting last post from previous thread here. Hope I did this right and don't upset Cadet....


Hi Steve - thanks for detailed feedback as always. Yes, I had started to read your threads and will continue to do so. Remarkably similar, so really helpful to see how you managed your sitch, as I'm sure there are lots of learning points.

WAWs do not come to the idea of leaving their marriages quickly. Most experts I've read said that they've moved on from the MR for 2 years or more before they ever drop the bomb.

She's been moving on mentally and emotionally for 2 years, but you think it can be fixed in a matter of days, weeks, or months?

I do keep telling myself she's been out of this relationship for a long time - I think far longer than 2 years tbh. More like 4 or 5. She tells me she's not felt like being intimate with me for more like 10 years. Nice. This is part of the reason why I am so surprised she picked #2 rather than #1, but also why I don't have high expectations at all that whatever work we do with the MC will turn her around. I actually don't think this will get fixed a few days or weeks, but was just surprised she flip-flopped in such a short space of time. Maybe I shouldn't have been, give WAW tendancies.

And thanks for the tip on the MC. Actually, we have scheduled to see the same person we saw together just after BD, and that my W saw individually for 1 session to help her think over whether it was possible she could feel differently about me after all this time. The outcome of the session my W had was that the MC thought it was unlikely she would get the love/desire/spark back, and this was a contributing factor to my W's original decision to go for #1 not #2. So now I think about it, I am wondering if she is the right counsellor to go back to together. She does have the right type of experience and expertise for our particular sitch, but I am now concerned she might be more the divorce counsellor like you suggest. Maybe we'll have 1 or 2 sessions and see how it goes since she does know us, and we both did like her.

What I can guarantee is that pursuit, pressure, snooping, etc.......they do not work.

Yep, roger that. I have stopped all of that activity, and actually am feeling much better for it. I think that means I am doing better at detaching, but maybe it has also been helped by her telling me (and me believing her) that she is no longer seeing the OM. I can see in her behaviour and activity patterns that this is probably true, and it does take a lot of the anxiety away and enables me to focus more on the main issue between us. Sounds like you had the perfect result after a lot of hard work, and that's something I can definitely aspire to.

Given your BD was only 6 or 7 months ago, it seems you and your W have made a lot of positive progress in quite a short time. How long was it before you felt she was turning after the start of MC? You suggest a month below, but presumably you saw positive signs through the homework you were doing. Also sounds like keeping it light and fun was really important - something I also think will be critical for us, given the intensity of everything at the moment. I just want us to enjoy ourselves again, and need to find a way to get this back without making it forced or false - which has been the case before when I tried too hard.

What should I look out for to indicate my W might be turning a corner? I know I'm a long way off that, but worth noting to see if the MC coupled with my continued DB'ing is having any effect.

And do you have any views on how long to wait (or what relationship milestone to hit) before thinking about her return to the MBR? Again, I don't plan to rush into this, but I've seen someone say elsewhere (not sure if it was my thread or someone elses), that if you are working on the R, then you should both be in the MBR to create the new normal. I don't feel ready for that yet, but I guess there is some logic to the statement, so wondered what your thoughts were.

Thanks again.

[Vanilla]

If you are piecing then you should both be in the MBR.

W has shown no interest in R at all, so this is not relevant.

OK let me ask this, what was it about you that WAS was attracted to?

What did you stop doing to woo her even in M?

Did you have date nights?

Did you lose interest in you?

Did you lose interest in her or sex with her?

-------------------------------------------

Now it is said that generally men have intimacy for sex and women have sex to get intimacy. WAS does not feel emotional connection to you and despite that she stayed in the M. That is some doing. Classic DB is bang on for you, trying to get WAW into the MBR will repel her completely as she does not have that connection with you. That is something that YOU will have to TANGO. Please reread the books MWD clearly examines why and what you can do.

These intamacies are different. In women that's generally emotional connection and in men physical. So WAW does not mean what you think by her statement. You are lucky WAW is telling you very clearly in unequivocal words what is wrong for HER. Do not dismiss it, it is valuable knowledge and should be validated.

Do you know her love language? Do you know your own?

That would be a good place to start. What do you know about WAW?

Have you included building soft communication skills as a goal? Do you know about seduction and attraction? Do you really know?

All you seem to have in your toolkit is DB and wishful thinking. Let's see some real self development goals and including those skills that are needed to create intimacy.

V

[Vanilla]

Let me just be clear on what I am saying.

Is W wayward? Yes of course. Is that ok? NO.

There is no doubt in my mind that WW chose to want to rebuild with you and it was reluctant.

But if she is telling you that she felt no intimacy with you for 10 years and you were blind to it then that has to shift.

She will have to feel intimacy to have sex with you.

You may be sleeping in the same bed but it isn't a marital bed. So in some way that intimacy needs rebuilding otherwise what is the point?

You aren't piecing yet and working on M.

V

[40free]

Thanks for the honest and frank assessment V. Lots of questions, all fair and to the point, and I'll try to my best to answer each, albeit some of them I'll need to think harder on, given I've clearly spent the last x years in some kind of relationship denial and missed all the signals, or maybe chose to ignore them. I think my NGS / conflict-avoidance is part responsible, the more I learn about myself and how I behave.

what was it about you that WAS was attracted to?

I guess I'm not bad looking, funny, can be charming, driven professionally, and would do anything for her. I was always the 'nice guy', rather than the a$$hole, was besotted, and we did love spending time together. I guess she saw me as marriage material, and we did have a chemistry. At least I thought we did.

What did you stop doing to woo her even in M?

I'm not sure. I always did nice things for her, bought her flowers, gifts, took her out. Not so it was monotonous, just semi-regularly. She's not at all sentimental though, so whilst I think she appreciated things I did for her, this didn't particularly float her boat. I guess when the kids came along, and all that comes with them, the focus was on them rather than us. I travelled a lot, and so had less energy for us, and that meant she had more space. And she likes her space, and got used to me not being there. She stopped being pleased to see me, I stopped making effort, it is spiralled down from there.

Did you have date nights?

Yes, not on a fixed schedule but we did go out the two of us, relatively regularly. Even more recently. But as far as I can recall, it was me who initiated these things, not her. I even suggested nights away and trips, which she did, but the ones I remember in recent years, with the benefit of what I know about how she felt, she was just going through the motions. I can't put my finger on precisely when the change happened tbh, but probably after the kids came along, which is quite some time ago.

Did you lose interest in you?

Do you mean interest in me, or her? If you mean me, yes, I think probably I got so caught up in trying to build my new business, having lost my job, and had to travel a lot and work evenings, weekends, holidays, that I lost my own mojo, probably was not as fun, and the downtime I had I spent with the kids, or trying to have a life outside of the family, rather than with her. She says I spent more time keeping others happy in that downtime than with her, which is what she really resented (not the work travel). I guess that's my NGS kicking in again. And something I really do need to work on.

Did you lose interest in her or sex with her?

I never lost interest in her or sex with her. Never. She is beautiful, sexy and I have always felt that way. Even as she has gotten older, she takes care of herself, and I want to be with her even more. I have quite a high sex drive, and so living with and loving her in these last few years when the feeling has clearly not been mutual, as been very frustrating for me. What happened was she gradually stopped trying with me, stopped responding to my affection, stopped being appreciative of things I did for her, and so I stopped trying myself, subconsciously at least. It's been very hard to take.

Now it is said that generally men have intimacy for sex and women have sex to get intimacy. WAS does not feel emotional connection to you and despite that she stayed in the M. That is some doing. Classic DB is bang on for you, trying to get WAW into the MBR will repel her completely as she does not have that connection with you. That is something that YOU will have to TANGO.

Funnily enough, I may go against the grain here. Sometimes I do just need sex, but actually what I am missing most at the moment is the intimacy. Are you saying she is some of kind hero for staying in the M for so long despite not feeling emotionally connected to me? And do you mean this means I should be DB'ing like mad to change how she feels?

Also, you say here that trying to get her in the MBR will repel her. Yet you also say if we are Piecing, then we should be together in the MBR. I'm confused. Maybe you think we're not actually piecing yet, and have work to do before we are, and she will move back in? What do you mean "TANGO"?

So WAW does not mean what you think by her statement. You are lucky WAW is telling you very clearly in unequivocal words what is wrong for HER

By 'her statement', you mean that she hasn't wanted to be intimate with me for a long time? And this means very clearly that she's had no emotional connection with me all that time? So I should be using that statement to work on getting that connection back?

Do you know her love language? Do you know your own?

I thought I did for both, but it's been such a long time that I'll need to work that out again. But don't we have to rebuild the connection, have fun, enjoy each other's company first, because we can go near the love part?

What do you know about WAW? Have you included building soft communication skills as a goal? Do you know about seduction and attraction? Do you really know?

I thought I knew her well, but since BD she has changed to someone I don't know or recognize, as it's clear she has been hiding how she really felt for a long time. I do need to work on communication skills. I thought I was ok at seduction but am clearly very rusty, and marriage and the drudgery of life has clearly numbed those skills. And that's why she went elsewhere to feel that 'spark' as she puts it. I have a lot to work on, I know, just don't know in what order to do so. I feel that really it should be about enjoying being with each other first - finding my old self, who she was originally attracted to, and enjoying being me again before I go anywhere near the seduction. Don't you think? I agree though, DB'ing and wishful thinking won't be enough. I will think some more on all of those things, but if you have suggestions on self-development and improvement, they'd be welcome.

Thanks again for taking the time to provide your guidance. It really is appreciated.

[40free]

You may be sleeping in the same bed but it isn't a marital bed. So in some way that intimacy needs rebuilding otherwise what is the point? You aren't piecing yet and working on M.

Ok thanks, I think I just answered one of my own questions. We aren't piecing. We need to re-connect, in order to get intimacy back. Absolutely. That's my goal. It will take some time I know - it's been a very long time that she has felt the way she feels, and I've only just cottoned on to it, in relative terms. And she has chosen the lesser of two evils in wanting to try to rebuild, and yes, she is reluctant, making this all the more difficult and a challenge. But I have to try. I do love her, even if she doesn't feel the same, and that is what is driving me at the moment.

Thanks again for your guidance. I'm off to do some homework and set some self-development goals. And think about what I know about her. V - you've been very helpful. Thanks

[SteveLW]

Given your BD was only 6 or 7 months ago, it seems you and your W have made a lot of positive progress in quite a short time. How long was it before you felt she was turning after the start of MC?

Just to be clear we are going on 8 months since BD. We started MC in late January. it took about 4 or 5 sessions before she started to talk and act like she was all in for working on the MC. Before then she seemed like she was still on the fence and not sure if the MR was what she wanted or if she wanted out. It was very gradual though, almost imperceptible. It wasn't until our first session after a marriage retreat about 2 months in that she told the MC she was leaning towards staying in the MR. (Sorry if I repeat myself, I lose track of what posters I tell what.)

What should I look out for to indicate my W might be turning a corner?

It is the small things. The hand on your back, or sitting close. Sleeping close is a huge one. I think it is AS and I have talked about the "edge of the bed hover" that WAWs are capable of. Where they are so far to the edge of the bed it is as if they are hovering over the floor. That was my W completely. When she moved back to the middle of the bed was when I knew things were getting better.

And do you have any views on how long to wait (or what relationship milestone to hit) before thinking about her return to the MBR?

I agree fully with V. You aren't in R unless you are sleeping together in the MBR. It is impossible to rekindle intimacy sleeping in separate beds. It is imperative that that step be rectified IF any meaningful progress is to be made. Note, that doesn't mean you can't start MC without. Please don't misinterpret that. MC can begin before R and piecing. In fact, MC can be a valuable tool, with the right MC, to moving things back in the right direction.

[40free]

I think it is AS and I have talked about the "edge of the bed hover" that WAWs are capable of. Where they are so far to the edge of the bed it is as if they are hovering over the floor.

Oh my. That is a thing? That is EXACTLY what she did. I just thought that's the way she slept. Now I think about it, she has probably been doing that for quite some time. Wow. That is a major revelation. Like a penny dropping. And my heart sinking....Ok, well now I know what to look for when the time comes. I think we are a long way off that though.

On the MBR, we won't have a choice but to sleep in the same bed next week on vacation. We'll see how that goes, and maybe when we get back I'll suggest she come back into our room. We aren't piecing yet, I can see that, but seems like she does need to be with me to give us a chance.

TBH, my head is spinning somewhat from all the things I personally need to work on. The more I think about what V said, the more I can see there is so much I should be doing and thinking about. I need to get these ordered in my mind somehow. And I am also reading NMMNG, which is also full of homework and exercises, although tbh, I'm not really convinced but much of what Dr Glover says. At its core, it's probably has some merit - I am definitely a very typical NG, and there are certainly things I could/should do differently, but the way the advice is conveyed is just so OTT. I think DB'ing first, self-development in parallel, and then thinking about get my old self back in that order.

Today I did have a bit of GAL. Went off to play cricket (a bit like baseball but less boring..!) - a work thing. Beers, BBQ and networking afterwards. Was fun. Not sure if the W appreciated me being out all day whilst she had the kids and their friends over to deal with - but she wanted her space so I gave it to her, and I GAL'ed. It should have been a win-win, but I can't help feeling it didn't come across that way to her. Anyway, I'll see how the weekend goes as we prep for the vacation.

[hongaku]

Don't worry about how it came across to her, it's YOUR time and YOUR space you were using to GAL for YOU! It doesn't matter at all how it came across to her, and you're just speculating thinking about it anyway - you don't have a clue how she felt about it unless you were to ask her; which you should not.

[Vanilla]

Don't make this more complex than it needs to be, otherwise you will walk on egg shells and super question everything you do.

Remember this is about you being a quality guy, being self centred, not selfish.

That's all you need to do, put you before R or WW. What would you like to do on holiday, what are your choices? If WE wants to be different, let her, see you later WW. Go GAL for you and let WW come to you.

Head up, chest out and breathe.

V

[40free]

Thanks for the pep talk hongaku and V. I do need that from time to time.

Being self-centred doesn't come naturally to me, but I'm definitely working on it. And I think self-centred and kids-focused is probably the right way for me to think about it. I need to be around for the kids as much as possible, not off doing my own thing, so will find the right balance. I will try to do that all week on vacation and see how it goes.

Head up, chest out and breathe. Got it.