WAW - managing limbo period

[Vanilla]

Cheaters usually leave in the end. Their lives are restricted and the OP gets insecure and asks them to do so.

You have no pressure so can limpet. You are focused.

And you can insist she pays her share of the bills if she stays which won't allow her a free life.

V

[AnotherStander]

She told me she's not moving out period

Oh well, you had said as much before so no surprise.

But I thought, for the sake of the kids, I would just make 100% certain so I asked her if she was sure - if so, that's fine, but I wanted to check. To my astonishment, she crumpled into a heap.. Tears, self-pity, guilt, the lot.

Guilt is exactly right. WAS's feel a lot of guilt, but not remorse. Remorse can pave the way to recon, but not guilt because she can feel guilt while still feeling JUSTIFIED if that makes sense.

We had a long chat in 'our' bedroom', and it turns out, despite seemingly being on a mission since we decided D was what we were doing, she is still completely torn.

This is quite normal. What is unusual if for her to express it. That's actually a good sign, she's opening up to you a little.

I listened, validated, questioned. No tears from me. No emotion.

Great, well done!

She suggested it was her who needed to do the work on how she felt about me, and I had to point out that actually there were a fair amount of issues I had to deal with as well

Next time don't try to lighten her load. She needs to feel and understand her faults in this. Just listen and validate.

My view - my W is cross with herself for not being able to pull the trigger at the weekend. She feels no differently really, just finding it hard to be the one driving this destruction.

Well I think she is being genuine about being confused and in turmoil. I am always advising people here that this is how WAS's feel inside even though they may look like the ice queen on the outside. She feels like she doesn't love you but at the same time she isn't sure that leaving the M is REALLY what she wants.

I think that's probably best too and have no hope or expectation that this will have a different outcome. The more I think about it, the more I feel that trying to work on things when she is so far gone (and I am so emotionally scarred by what she has done to me) will just be delaying the inevitable and we'll be back in the same situation in 12 months time, or probably much sooner.

Yes. I think if your W hits rock bottom and truly starts feeling remorse then maybe that will change, but it doesn't sound like she's there yet.

What are your views on this?

Would you suggest I simply pull the trigger myself? This yes no game is torture.

Or do I be patient, let her stew in her own mess a while, and see if she comes out of the fog long enough to want to work on us?

Given her apparent change of heart I would at least give it a few weeks. I don't think she'll be coming out of the fog that soon but you never know.

[40free]

Thanks to AS, HG and Vanilla for your responses. All good guidance, in what is fast becoming a make or break time for us. For good or for bad.

We had another talk last night as the kids were all out. More tears, emotions, going round in circles on her part. Some quotes from the conversation to give you an idea of how she is feeling.

"I am withering inside". "I dread getting up in the morning". "I feel trapped.", all describing her experience of living with me at the moment.

That's on the one hand. On the other hand "I feel so selfish about what I am doing to you and the kids." "I am such a coward". "I'm so scared of having to start all over again, with a new house, a new job. I don't know how I will cope. I can't even work the TV."

Basically more of the same. And nothing indicating she can see a way to work on our relationship. Only references with everything else, as has been the way for the last few weeks.

I told her we basically have 2 options. The same 2 options as before.

(1) If the scales are tipping more towards her not wanting to be with me any more (and it's clear to me they are), then I help her pull the trigger. And I help her with whatever she is scared about. I'm nice like that. Probably too nice according to my sister. NGS is me all over, and that's something I need to work on regardless. Or

(2) If she just can't get her head around the destruction she is causing, and feels she just has to try to work on us because the alternative is too guilt-ridden and scary, even if she thinks there's not much hope, then we start counselling together and also lay out ways in which our relationship will need to change (and there will be lots, from both sides). Things like me giving her more space, she doing things to help me trust her again. etc

The problem with (2) is that, aside from the general need to figure out how we re-connect in our relationship again, it has to involve some form of sexual therapy, or ways for her to get her feelings for me back. Her lack of desire for me is a major problem in her mind. And the thought of the counsellors approach to sex therapy repulses her. She had even asked our CC what that would entail when she had her 1-to-1 session with her a couple of weeks ago. You know, hand-holding, then touching non-intimately etc, then the rest follows. I could see her face contort as she recounted this. She can't even bear to hold my hand - how the heck is she going to do the rest. Very hurtful for me to see/hear, but at least I know where I stand.

I left the conversation feeling genuinely sick. I repulse her (ok, maybe a bit strong, but she sees me as nothing more than a friend. Not a lover.) She can't spend time in my company. She doesn't even want to hold my hand. I know this is not to do with me, it's her. And in fact she told me as much. She thinks I'm a 'good man', and it's just that her feelings have changed. But how can this be the basis of a M?

So again, my view - (1) is the only solution. I could make this decision myself tbh. I should. My sister (who is admittedly partisan, and sick of the way my W is treating me, taking control, and I'm letting her), says I should. She says (2) is not going to work, and my W knows it. So it is just delaying the inevitable, and then we'll be back in this vicious circle of not being able to decide between unhappy marriage or destruction.

We have to decide soon. We do actually have some time pressure as given the kids have a big year in school next year, we don't want to disrupt it with giving them all this to deal with. And so if we're going to do it, it should be now/soon so they have the holidays to get their heads around it, and for us to help them do it. If we are going to make a go of it, really we just have a few weeks to see, or a full year, if we don't want to disrupt their education.

And we're supposed to go on vacation next week (7/16), so we need to decide what to do about that as well. Do I go? Do I pretend I have work/travel? Can my W and I even be there together given we haven't slept in the same room for 10 weeks?

Anyway, I left the house early today to work elsewhere and give my W the space so she can 'wither inside' a little less. My sister says why should I be the one to do that. But I feel I need to at least make an effort. I do still care for her, and hate that she is clearly so unhappy. But something does have to give.

Maybe we'll chat again this evening. I'll wait to see if the time apart today has helped her decide one way or the other.

Keep you posted..

[AnotherStander]

"I am withering inside". "I dread getting up in the morning". "I feel trapped.", all describing her experience of living with me at the moment.

That's on the one hand. On the other hand "I feel so selfish about what I am doing to you and the kids." "I am such a coward". "I'm so scared of having to start all over again, with a new house, a new job. I don't know how I will cope. I can't even work the TV."

All very typical WAS thoughts/ comments. Usually they keep that inside, so her opening up is actually a positive sign. Just a baby step, but that's what DB'ing is all about.

If she just can't get her head around the destruction she is causing,

You can't guilt her back.

I repulse her (ok, maybe a bit strong, but she sees me as nothing more than a friend. Not a lover.)

Actually that word is probably more accurate than you realize. That's how she feels right now, but that can change with time. Your sitch is still very new.

I know this is not to do with me, it's her.

Yup.

(1) is the only solution. I could make this decision myself tbh. I should. My sister (who is admittedly partisan, and sick of the way my W is treating me, taking control, and I'm letting her), says I should.

Your sister is following chapter 1 of DR, she wants you to end things because she (falsely) believes it will bring closure. But it won't. This is about what YOU think is right for YOU. If you're not sure then give yourself some more time. You'll know when you are ready. Personally I think 3 months post-BD is far too soon to be thinking about D.

And we're supposed to go on vacation next week (7/16), so we need to decide what to do about that as well. Do I go? Do I pretend I have work/travel?

I'm sure some here might say to cancel it, but personally if you've already got everything planned out then I would go. I would look at it as a trip for the kids rather than for you and W. If you go, have zero expectations that it means anything or will change anything.

Maybe we'll chat again this evening. I'll wait to see if the time apart today has helped her decide one way or the other.

She's not going to express anything but confusion to you for months. If you want a decision before that then you will have to make it for her.

[SteveLW]

AS is dead on here. And this reminds me alot of my sitch from BD (12/23) through February.

W said many of the same things. As AS said, the fact that she is verbalizing her contradictory thoughts IS good. My W did that too, and fairly early on. However, she would usually revert back to her stance of repulsion, wanting out, feeling trapped shortly after. It is like they are multi-personality.

AS is correct, you can't guilt her back. The fact she is expressing some doubts means she has a battle going on inside. Part of her wants out. Part of her doesn't want to lose what she has. Part of her wants to recapture sexual and romantic passion (just not with you right now). Part of her wants to keep her family together.

My advice 40 is to GAL like a madman. Keep on 180ing on things that go you here. Detach. Detach. Detach. (In my sitch things didn't get better until I let her go.) Go on the vacation and be lovingly detached from her. Bury yourself into your kids.

Good luck, keep us updated.

[ovrrnbw]

Why help her pull the trigger on getting out? Don't you want to save things? That NGS may be part of the attraction issue. Work hard on that and you may be in a better spot.

[40free]

Thanks AS, Steve and Ovr. I really appreciate you taking the time to translate what she is saying to me into advice and such informative insight. It does help me to see things more clearly, and to realise this is not a race to the end.

It's hard sometimes to think patience is the key, when every day is so up and down, and you just want the madness to end. Three months since BD doesn't seem that long as you say, but it has felt like a lifetime.

So anyway, after no talk at all yesterday, more revelations again this morning. She initiated. We only really had a short time to discuss and she said she didn't want to have a long conversation as the kids would be getting up soon and she tends to get all emotional which she wanted to avoid.

She cut to the chase. She had been thinking about the question I had put to her - which of the two feelings were stronger - (1) her desire for space and need to move on given how she felt about me, or (2) the guilt around the destruction of the family and all we had built together and the fear of starting anew. (1) would mean we move ahead to tell the kids about D, (2) would mean counselling and a blank sheet of paper for marriage 2.0.

I listened patiently, looking at her directly. She looked away from me as she talked.

To my total surprise (but maybe not yours?) she said she felt (2) was the stronger, and so for now she would like to try to go to counselling and see how it goes. This came across as the lesser of two evils and it wasn't like she said it with a smile on her face or remorse in her heart, and so I don't feel like it's a big win or anything, but it's a start.

If I'm honest, given my expectation that the outcome of that conversation whenever it happened was that option (1) would be the answer, I am not sure how I feel about it. Mostly because deep down, I just don't think this is what she wants, but she is just too scared or guilt-ridden to pull the trigger on the alternative, and surely that isn't the basis of a future happy M. As I've said before. But when she asked me, I told her that yes if this is what she wants, then we can do that.

She also said that she's really not sure how helpful counselling will be as her experience to date has not helped her with her decision making. She says she tends to get good advice from counsellors, feels sure when leaving the room that separating is what she wants and is right, and then that all disappears as soon as she gets home to us all, the house, everything. i.e. when reality sets in. So her faith in a positive CC experience is not high.

I suggested that maybe it would be different if we did CC together. We've never really worked on our M together, never properly communicated like we have been, so maybe we just need to give it a chance. She nodded. She also says she doesn't like speaking at these sessions (in front of me) because she feels all she ever can say is hurtful and she doesn't want to hurt me any more than she had done already. I just think these are the sort of things that need to come out. I can share my thoughts and now is the time for openness and honesty if we are ever going to get the chance to rebuild something positive.

And then we agreed that I would come on vacation with the family (before, when we had decided to separate, we were thinking she would go and I would stay at home), as this would be a test of how we do for a few days together. It will also be the first time we share a room in 10 weeks. Something I'm not sure about tbh. She has definitely ended her relationship with the OM, and seems ready to at least try, so I guess this is something that is a logical step.

Any thoughts on whether I should suggest she come back into the MBR before we go away on Monday? Feels a bit rushed to do that if I'm honest. Just because she's said she'd like to give us a chance, doesn't mean she suddenly feels differently about me. And, when I think about it, I am still very much hurting from her A - actually more the betrayal, dishonesty and deceit, as recently as 19 May. So I think maybe one step at a time, and only when it feels right.

Do you have advice as to how to take the next step? Is it normal that she suddenly makes a decision like that so quickly after being so determined the other way? How likely is it for her to swing the other way as quickly as she make her decision?

I am just feeling I need to be very cautious and not get ahead of myself, and of course, the trust is not there, so I just feel I still need to act kind of detached to protect myself, albeit whilst continuing to work with her on building blocks. A tricky balance.

Thoughts?

[arsh18]

40, i have been reading on your sitch for a few days now and the latest post shows the stark difference from few days ago. I would take it really slow, really really slow. WW wanting to work on MR might not mean she is really ready. I feel the restlessness in your posts but be patient, it might not feel so but time really is the LBSs friend. No one knows how WASs feel in a few months, if it is few months down the lane so be it.
the talk about moving to MBR might be too quick just yet.
Good luck, I will be following your posts and posting if I think I have something to chime in. - arshi

[AnotherStander]

Thoughts?

I agree with Arshi, she's not ready. And I think you are pushing too hard. You should refrain from all these R talks, even if W is initiating them. Read Steve's advice again:

"My advice 40 is to GAL like a madman. Keep on 180ing on things that got you here. Detach. Detach. Detach. (In my sitch things didn't get better until I let her go.) Go on the vacation and be lovingly detached from her. Bury yourself into your kids."

Do that!

[SteveLW]

40free, you should really read my threads! So many parallels to our situations.

Your instincts are likely correct. If she could wave a magic wand and take out the fact that she'd have to face her kids, and other people, she'd probably choose #1 all day long right now. WAWs do not come to the idea of leaving their marriages quickly. Most experts I've read said that they've moved on from the MR for 2 years or more before they ever drop the bomb.

That is important and needs to be understood. BD is not the start of your MR being over. All newbies understand this please! IF you are a LBH, your WAW has been looking for an exist strategy for 2 years PRIOR to BD. This puts into perspective the amount of time that has occurred since BD, doesn't it? She's been moving on mentally and emotionally for 2 years, but you think it can be fixed in a matter of days, weeks, or months? Yeah, not likely.

If she is suggesting counseling, even if you don't believe her heart is completely into it yet, go ahead and do it. But like all other things with WAWs have ZERO expectations. Also, talk to her after each session. If either of you have an inkling that the MC isn't right, do not hesitate to change MCs!! This is important. Try to find a marriage-friendly MC (usually faith-based is the safest), other wise you might end up with a Divorce Counselor instead.

Here is the key. Even if her heart says #1, and it is her head choosing #2 for a variety of reasons, don't worry about that right now. Give it a go and see where it ends up. In my sitch my W went into MC and working on the MR very reluctantly. The big things were that she did the MC homework. We attended a faith-based marriage retreat. The combo of the three (MC, homework, retreat) coupled with my consistent DBing, (detach, 180s, GAL) led to us moving into R. None of those things by themselves did it. Those things in concert blended just right to move us there. Your formula might be different, but work to find what works in your sitch.

What I can guarantee is that pursuit, pressure, snooping, etc.......they do not work. Each of those things set us back ,each time I gave in to them. It wasn't until I dropped that rope and stopped those things that our marriage moved forward.

At the retreat, during lunch, we had a really bad moment where she rebelled against what she was hearing, and I allowed myself to get dragged into a really intense R discussion. After that I let it go, we went back to the afternoon session of the retreat, and things improved. We had a lot of fun and kept things light on the way home from the retreat. We continued in that vein for the next couple of weeks. Due to some school events for D14, and the retreat, we didn't have a MC session for about a month. At the next one we both were very much committed to working on the MR. The MC was astounded at our progress. My W told her, when asked if she was leaning toward leaving or staying that as we kept things light, fun, as we continued our weekly date (in our case Friday lunch), she was leaning more and more towards staying and working on the MR.

I say all that to point out that that would never have happened if I kept pursuing and pressuring and snooping. Those behaviors ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS resulted in my initiating a R talk. And always set us back. If you can cut out those things and keep things positive, upbeat, and happy then I think you have the potential of following a similar path.