Hoosjim's 16th. Looks like we're piecing, folks.

[artista]

hey, hoosjim... thank you for checking in... it's important that DBers hear about what comes next after a couple gets to the point where they want to work on the M... i think it's good that you make the appt with the MC... and maybe W can come to see that you think it's important in order to maintain and even grow, at least for the time-being... not on a weekly basis--but maybe every 4 weeks for the next couple of months, and then maybe every 6 weeks... and then maybe on an as-needed basis... W should be agreeable to it simply because it is important to you... because things are going well, what harm can checking in periodically with the MC do?

[hoosjim]

hey, hoosjim... thank you for checking in... it's important that DBers hear about what comes next after a couple gets to the point where they want to work on the M... i think it's good that you make the appt with the MC... and maybe W can come to see that you think it's important in order to maintain and even grow, at least for the time-being... not on a weekly basis--but maybe every 4 weeks for the next couple of months, and then maybe every 6 weeks... and then maybe on an as-needed basis... W should be agreeable to it simply because it is important to you... because things are going well, what harm can checking in periodically with the MC do?

Hi artista. Thanks for stopping by and for the encouragement and the kind words.

Helping others in similar sitches is something i most definitely want to do... paying it forward, i guess... so i imagine i will continue coming by from time to time. Of course, not sure how to balance that with the new "open and trusting marriage." Still not entirely sure how the W would take or react to a full a revelation of all that i have posted here-- which is pretty much EVERYTHING and then some. Not even sure my MC knows everything that i have revealed on these boards. So, even as i would love my W to be able to contribute here as have you and Sandi, not sure how that would ever happen. I would love, of course, for us to be able to do something together to help distressed couples by leveraging the wisdom gleaned from our own experience and sitch, but even that comes with hurdles-- not sure either of us would necesarily want to "out" ourselves completely as to what transpired (in my case because i don't want any hard feelings towards my W from friends/family, and in my W's case because, well, similar reasons.)

Hopefully God will reveal something to us... some way to contribute and make a difference.

Thanks again!

[AnotherStander]

Great update Jim! Glad to hear things are going well!

W and i were warm and flirty and snuggly with each other even around the boys (which they think is "weird" and keep telling us so, but, oh well... we should've been a better example when they were younger.)

When the ex and I went to MC right after BD the C said kids act like they are all repulsed about their parents showing intimacy, but inside they absolutely love it, it makes them feel warm and secure in their family. I do believe that, I can remember when I was a kid doing the eye-rolling thing at my parents while inside thinking it was cool that they loved each other so much that they couldn't keep it secret.

[hoosjim]

Just checking in. All seems mostly well, so i will only touch on the areas where i think things could improve.

1) There has definitely been some cooling since the honeymoon period. Not "cold", mind you, but not as hot and clingy and constantly in touch, either. Most notable on the text feed. She was a constant presence there the first few weeks, now not as much, though our communications are still fun and flirty. She did have a card waiting for me when i got home from my fishing trip this past weekend saying how much she loved me, loved us, appreciated all i did and was for, etc etc. Guess i am just wondering what everyone's take is on how much cooling is too much? I suppose i fear a gradual and barely noticeable return to complacency.

2) Some personal things on her part that were somewhat troublesome in the past and part of the "Bad old Days" (prior to the affair but during that period where we drew apart) have cropped up here and there. Particularly her body image issues (Ex: flirting with her the other day and she said something like "look, if you are wanting 'all this' then there is probably something wrong with you". She was kind of joking, but kind of not. Also returning as an issue is her concern, either feigned or real, that i might be having my head turned or even becoming tempted or involved by another woman. She always used to make comments about me "seeing someone" or when a new woman would come to work in my office or if i went to see a female physician she'd make comments or cracks kind of half jokingly to that effect. This seemed to crop up late last week when i dropped a business card i had gotten from my physical therapy clinic for one of the (young female) massage therapists there. The picture on the card is, of course, flattering, and my W had found the card on the floor and put it up on my dresser with my other "pocket stuff" and made a few comments about my "little blonde masseuse". Same kind of half-joking but with underlying lilt of concern. During our therapy and during her IC she had told our counselor both that she used to hope sometimes that i would have an A so that it would give her an out, and that even before that she always felt not pretty enough in comparison to other women. She got really really upset once early in our marriage when i went into a Hooters restaurant with some friends when we were all down at a football game in Georgia, for just that reason. These things had kind of disappeared for several weeks, and she had said that her work with Jessica, our counselor, had helped resolve alot of her uncertainty and self image and other issues.

3) Maybe something, maybe nothing. While i was away, on Friday, she went out to "comfort a friend." I know the friend, and she does need comforting right now. I also know that they did meet up Friday night. However, for the first time since we started to R, she did not tell me ahead of time she was going out. I only found out when i texted her at bedtime and then she didn't get back to me until 1215 AM, after i was already asleep. She said she "didn't get the text until just then" (Possible, since she keeps her tones turned down and was in a noisy pub/restaurant with her friend). Said they went to bar and had two drinks each and some nachos. 1215 just seems kind of late for this other woman, who is not a night owl, generally speaking, though she does have some personal and family problems right now, and two and a half hours seems like a long time for two drinks and an appetizer. Anyway, when i got home, only the tiniest of alarm bells had gone off... until I found out (because i follow the place on FB) that, after moving to a new locale, OM's fave pub had a grand reopening. On that same Friday night. So, just for grins, because i knew i would find nothing and it would make me feel better, i checked her Google account (which she now always leaves signed "on" on the home computer). It showed her phone going to her friend's house at 830, and then to the pub/restaurant at 0915, and coming home at 1150 and arriving home at 1205 with no detours. However, her phone log also showed her searching for the name of that pub and its location. I know, i know, prolly nothing and i shouldn't have been snooping. Still, not a big alarm bell-- she does not appear to have gone by there... but why do the search? FWIW i have gotten none of the vibes or cues i had gotten from her in the past when she had contacted or seen OM.

Otherwise, all seems well. We continue to look for places to live once the kids are off to college in the Fall, as well as looking for vacation destinations. Things got a little tense a couple days back discussing finances, but we pulled through it and hugged and were good afterwards. That wouldn't have happened in the old days. I also was in a bit of a personal funk for a day or two last week but recognized it and pulled myself out of it, which she recognized.

Still haven't had a recent MC session with counselor... too busy.

[SteveLW]

I agree, nothing overly troubling here. But I do understand your concerns. HJ I too have been dealing with similar feelings of the "cooling" period. Ours is exacerbated by our move, and we've both been so tired at the end of the day(s). I am hoping once we are done unpacking and have settled in, we'll get back to being more affectionate.

We too haven't had a MC session in a while, again due to the move. I am considering suggesting one, see what her reaction is.

But in general like you, I get none of the vibes I used to. We still pray together every night, we are still in contact throughout the day. And there are still a lot of little things that were all gone prior to BD. The level of engagement in us, the family, church, etc are all back to where they were a year or two ago before she went WW.

HJ, just keep monitoring. Trust is not something that returns over night. She probably expects you to continue to be worried and have moments where it is difficult to trust. I don't think it is snooping in your/my sitch. Trust but verify....it is verification.

Also, I know from past experience that the draw of OM is a difficult thing for women to break. Even if they break contact, there is still curiosity there. Think about girls/women from your past. Depending on the level of your R with them there is probably some curiosity there about them. I know I still have that for women from my past. So it isn't unusual. I say all that to say that is probably all that the search was, curiosity.

Anyway, HJ, just keep working on your changes since everything happened. Nothing has changed, you still can't control her. Only yourself. So cement your changes. Keep up your end of the bargain. And she probably will follow suit!

[hoosjim]

Also, I know from past experience that the draw of OM is a difficult thing for women to break. Even if they break contact, there is still curiosity there. Think about girls/women from your past. Depending on the level of your R with them there is probably some curiosity there about them. I know I still have that for women from my past. So it isn't unusual. I say all that to say that is probably all that the search was, curiosity.

Thanks, Steve, that's a great contribution and a great point. I, too, actually wonder about old "flames" from time to time, even to the point of doing FB searches or the like just because i wonder. Seems harmless enough but, still... I do recall one of my patterns from the bad old days was being a bit too interested in other women... even women from my past, and i would bring them up from time to time with W... not even sure why. And my sense is is that while, perhaps mostly harmless, it is not completely harmless. At least with me. I think i can safely say that it definitely did not do anything to strengthen my MR with my W and the way i felt about her. idk. But, yeah, i suppose it is to be expected. I imagine that that sort of thing is something we will talk about once we have our next MC session. I know there are things that have come up that still give me a bit of a sting... such as my inadvertently driving us by OM's house while following GPS directions the other day, or when one of her GFs who was on the much-discussed beach trip last summer (where she saw OM) posted a pic on FB from that weekend with the message "Let's go here again real soon!" (Really? She knows exactly what went on there with my W and OM, and that i am now on W's FB feed. Maybe she doesn't know i know but... still.. doesn't make it any better)

Also, some more color: We actually talked about the thing with the Masseuse and the business card. (We do talk alot more these days than we ever have... even about difficult things.) She (W) said that when she found the card she did have one of those "feeling bad about herself" moments as well as thoughts of doubt about me and what i might be up to. and that she felt "jealous." Then she said that meeting up with her GF, who had already been drinking, was a bit tipsy (this other girl is not much of drinker so probably wouldn't have taken much) was good because the GF was very funny in her tipsy state and it lightened her (my W's) mood. My W also said that she had been feeling bad about making those comments to me about "my little masseuse" and the like, because she knows it is similar to things she said in the past and knows it probably made me feel bad or uncomfortable. For my part, i said i could understand why she might worry, given what we had just gone through, but that she needn't worry and that i am totally committed, and that in case she was at all uncomfortable with it that i would find another therapist, either male or else a big, hulking, manly woman... preferably with facial hair. (This made her giggle.)

We still pray together every night,

This is something i really wish we were more connected on. Our faith, and the extent to which we shared it, has always seemed a little, idk, uncomfortable maybe? She was born and raised roman catholic, and i was raised in a protestant faith. I joined her church after we were married and had our first child, partially because i wanted to avoid sending mixed messages to our children and wanted us all to be able to participate in whatever church we joined (although this was prolly a non-issue if i'd thought about it-- her parents were actually also a "mixed" marriage with her father a protestant who never joined the RCC) and partially because there were certain tenets of the catholic faith that i found attractive-- particularly that it didn't seem to change or "flex" to reflect the whims of pop culture or modern society. As our kids grew and went through CCD class, however, i started to have a few concerns, and realized (or at least believed) that my own beliefs posed some theological contradictions with roman catholicism. This ended up creating some friction between she and me, particularly when the kids would ask questions about particular tenets of the faith (at least as taught by our church) with which i was not completely on board. Nonetheless, i feel my years in the RCC definitely helped my faith to grow in a number of ways, and was an important part of my spiritual journey. Lately, beginning shortly after BD last year, i have spent some time in another nearby church (non-denominational), and still tune into their services either live or via podcast as i am able to on Sundays, even as i do attend mass with my family (when we can all be rounded up.) My stance and view on theology has become alot more, idk, "flexible"(?) I guess. I think God comes to different people in different ways, and that the fundamental tenets of Christianity are much more similar than dissimilar, despite what various faiths and denominations might say. The most important and fundamental underpinnings are identical and inviolable-- and i think the specific practices are not nearly as important as the core beliefs. At any rate, i no longer object to my sons performing certain rituals in the church-- if it works to bring them closer to God, i'm all good with it. But somehow my W and i have never gotten to that point where we regularly pray together. It's always seemed just a little awkward the times we do it. Perhaps it has to do with her coming from a fairly rigid catholic background with "Set" prayers for most occasions (she has always says she finds it a little annoying when people can just sprout out spontaneous/extemporaneous prayers that are "just the perfect thing to say at the moment" because she could never do that). Or perhaps, that i did not come from an evangelical background, and that prayer in my circles growing up was almost always done silently. Whichever, it is something i would LOVE for us to be more comfortable with and be comfortable doing together, just not sure how to get there. Would also love for her to come to this other church with me some time, not to try to "convert" her, but just to hear the message from this particular pastor, who is just extremely positive and warm and always seems to find a way to speak to what is going on in one's life and heart. I think that would also help us both to step out into some sort of philanthropic outreach efforts, something we have both talked about through the years but have never seemed to get around to for the most part. (A handful of years we "adopted a family" through a friends church and bought food and holiday decorations and a tree and the like at christmas, but that's been it.) Love to hear anyone's thoughts on this because i think it could really, really be the final "cement" in our relationship.

Love you guys, and thanks again for all the support!

[SteveLW]

NEVER DISCUSS RELIGION. LOL I will try not to break it. But your last paragraph really spoke to a red flag, one that I like to discuss with soon-to-be married couples. Before marriage is where a lot of that should be worked out. The problem is that when we are young and in love religion isn't as important to us. Then when kids come along, and as we get older and our mortality is more, ummmmm, pressing? we suddenly start thinking about it a little harder.

This is where I break my bolding a bit. And I do not mean to kick off a theological discussion, but if we base our decisions and (SHOCK!) beliefs on the teachings of the Bible (and for Christians the NT in specific) we short-circuit a lot of these later problems. You converted to the RCC for expediency. Likely that will give you a bit of heartburn for the rest of your life. The problem with any denomination is that they part ways with NT teachings (in fact, being a denomination is in of itself a departure from the self-autonomous congregations we see in the NT). My point is not to quibble over beliefs but to encourage others to set aside history (she grew up RC, I great up XYZ), but to get back to the Book for the determination about what is right and proper.

Stepping down off soapbox..............obviously this is much easier to see 30 year on, than it was when we were in our 20s and falling in love. And we were willing to become anything short of Satanists to satisfy the love of our life! But the point is that we have to really be careful that these decisions don't cause resentment. Resentment, however small at first, has a habit of growing big overtime.

On your other points, all are very understandable. You are right, curiosity about old flames is counter-productive. Also, the problems with infidelity is that it is always there in the back of your mind. You probably will think back to it every time something as simple as the location of that infamous beach trip is brought up.

I know in my sitch, there are songs that my W sang with her EA partner that I still can't listen to. Maybe never will be able to. The memory of the pain and hurt will always be attached to it.

HJ, sometimes staying together is harder than splitting up. This board is full of posters that are experiencing that difficulty. The way forward is tough. You and I that have gone through it realize that R is not without its own pain. Pain that likely will be there for quite sometime. I've known people whose spouse cheated 30-40 years ago, that have been in R ever since that still have hangups over it. It is hard. It is tough. It is grueling. And while MR 2.0 (and in my case 3.0!) is better than MR 1.0, there is still the pain of the memories of MR 1.0.

Any newbies that think that R is all roses and butterfly kisses.....I wish. While the first 3 months of my sitch was the toughest thing I've ever had to go through, the 4 months since haven't been easy. Be ready to put your big boy or girl boots on even if your sitch moves to piecing. (Piecing is so aptly named!!)

[hoosjim]

My point is not to quibble over beliefs but to encourage others to set aside history (she grew up RC, I great up XYZ), but to get back to the Book for the determination about what is right and proper.

And this is really the thing, right? How to encourage someone to seek the truth on their own in the book without the overlay of someone trying to spoon feed it to them... or at least to be open to listening to someone less dogmatic discuss it... and all without being overbearing or preachy or stepping on toes or otherwise doing something to turn that person off. I think, actually, that that is a good bit of what is behind the "live your life as a light" or beacon, so that you will be an example to others and they will want to know: "Hey, where does all that joy come from." AAR, it sounds like you and me are basically on the same page theologically. I have had so many revelations... finally understanding tenets of the faith that i never could grasp before... just as a result of going to this non-denominational church and being willing to listen and to study the bible on my own, that i really, really wish the same thing for my W! She has so much guilt (even more, now, since the A-- she's still not going to communion regularly) from her upbringing and things she's done in the past, that the message that she is ALREADY FORGIVEN, if she accepts that Christ and accepts that forgiveness would just be so freeing for her... the person she would/could be would be just amazing. I see glimpses of that person sometimes, the capacity for love and joy, but it is dampered by her guilt. OTOH, she is very, very, very Catholic. Don't know if she would ever go to another church regularly, (and almost certainly not this one-- she watched a couple podcasts of services with her bff, who also went there when still in these parts, and said the way he spoke was "annoying"...to the best of my understanding due to the rhetorical style he uses which is one that tries to engage and draw out responses from the congregation to keep them engaged, interested, listening, and, ummm... awake) but, if she could, i really think she could blossom. But, even if not, if we could reach some sort of place where we were fully comfortable praying out loud with/for each other in each others' presence, and able to discuss theological stuff openly and frequently (we do some, now) that it would be a major boon for our MR.

[neffer]

Hi Jim, I´m glad things are working.

You know, I was a wayward H some time ago. I have been OW free for more than two years now. We had an on-off 2 years R with the classical ups and downs of a forbidden R. I am back with my family but I find myself searching for OW in the net. If you ask me why am I doing it I really don´t know. But it does not mean I am having some kind of relapse behaviour. I felt I needed to protect OW and her son so that feelings got me near her and we started the EA. So there is a dependence link between partners when these R develope. I still worry about OW well-being but I left this as it is. Eventhough I want the best for her, I can´t do nothing, she is out of my life. I know she is doing better now.

What I mean is that sometimes there are some remnant memories of whatever R was. Well time goes over all of it. Patience

[SteveLW]

My point is not to quibble over beliefs but to encourage others to set aside history (she grew up RC, I great up XYZ), but to get back to the Book for the determination about what is right and proper.

And this is really the thing, right? How to encourage someone to seek the truth on their own in the book without the overlay of someone trying to spoon feed it to them... or at least to be open to listening to someone less dogmatic discuss it... and all without being overbearing or preachy or stepping on toes or otherwise doing something to turn that person off. I think, actually, that that is a good bit of what is behind the "live your life as a light" or beacon, so that you will be an example to others and they will want to know: "Hey, where does all that joy come from." AAR, it sounds like you and me are basically on the same page theologically. I have had so many revelations... finally understanding tenets of the faith that i never could grasp before... just as a result of going to this non-denominational church and being willing to listen and to study the bible on my own, that i really, really wish the same thing for my W! She has so much guilt (even more, now, since the A-- she's still not going to communion regularly) from her upbringing and things she's done in the past, that the message that she is ALREADY FORGIVEN, if she accepts that Christ and accepts that forgiveness would just be so freeing for her... the person she would/could be would be just amazing. I see glimpses of that person sometimes, the capacity for love and joy, but it is dampered by her guilt. OTOH, she is very, very, very Catholic. Don't know if she would ever go to another church regularly, (and almost certainly not this one-- she watched a couple podcasts of services with her bff, who also went there when still in these parts, and said the way he spoke was "annoying"...to the best of my understanding due to the rhetorical style he uses which is one that tries to engage and draw out responses from the congregation to keep them engaged, interested, listening, and, ummm... awake) but, if she could, i really think she could blossom. But, even if not, if we could reach some sort of place where we were fully comfortable praying out loud with/for each other in each others' presence, and able to discuss theological stuff openly and frequently (we do some, now) that it would be a major boon for our MR.

Well said. And I think that we need to be the biggest, brightest beacon for those closest to us. If she sees true joy down in your heart then she will become curious about it too.