Affair, no feelings...is there hope? V

[44tries]

Arghhh...I had my first experience losing a long post...and I was about done with it too Maybe this one will be more succinct.

Look 44, she understands a lot more than you give her credit. The whole defensive attitude comes from her guilt. You have always been submissive to whatever she wanted, however she wanted it. She thinks if she holds out long enough, you'll eventually give up. I'll have to say it kind of sounds like you want to back peddle on some things. You sound like a man who doesn't know how to enforce his boundaries......so you want to stop "pushing & labeling", and just go with the flow (which is code for a nice-guy wanting to return to his comfortable old ways). Nothing in the sitch has changed.

I think she understands everything. I don't intend to go back to being submissive or give up (assuming you mean give up on regaining power, not the MR). I will be the first to admit I have issues enforcing boundaries, but I am (hopefully) getting better. That is a major area I have been trying to grow. I have no intention of going back to the old ways. The power I have been able to regain already has made it more than clear to me that there is nothing comfortable about going back (ie having no power). If you are right that nothing at all has changed, I will have to re-evaluate.

Oh well, if she's stubborn then that makes for all exceptions in the world! No, it doesn't. Look up stubbornness in the King James Old Testament and you'll see it in the same scripture as witchcraft. You'll see where God doesn't like it. That places some perspective on her stubbornness. Besides, all waywards have stubbornness, 44. Look, don't you think I recognize some of the language in these quotes above? I've seen it so many times, where the LBH starts saying how he is at odds with the DB philosophy. More times than not, it's all excuses b/c he doesn't feel that he has what it takes to implement tough love.

Some more great insight. To be clear, I was not saying I was okay with her stubbornness. It is one of the biggest enemies! I want it gone. And I understand that drawing hard lines and having no tolerance are my best weapons against it. I definitely see what you're saying about excuses. I do think I have what it takes and can implement tough love (and I am in a lot of ways). The only thing I feel at odds with is strictly about forcing an ultimatum on recommitment. To me, the DB approach is about everyday increasing the chances the WAS/WS recommits. And I honestly feel that is happening in my sitch. So, it's hard to say today is the day I force it. In the beginning, I thought the end is when the WAS/WS comes to you and says they want to recommit. But obviously that might never happen and you have to draw your own line too. So I can see why it just looks like an excuse.

IDK what type of "steps" she needs to go through before committing to doing the right thing in the MR (I suppose that's what you mean by "official").

I just meant the steps in between "I want completely out of this MR/I'm having an A" to "I want to recommit to the MR and do everything possible to make it work". Of course, the right thing to do is stay committed to an MR. But none of us would be here if our spouses wanted to do the right thing. The hope is that they get to the place where they do want to, right? I suppose whatever steps they need to get there are personal and we cannot control them; that's a central pillar to DB. All my efforts to rebuild respect and regain attraction etc have been helpful, so when do I say enough is enough or force the issue? I know that is my question to answer, but that is my dilemma.

44, she is sneaking around texting some guy. It may not be the same 19 yr old boy, but it is some guy. Women don't hide to text another woman. She has offered nothing for you to arrive to the conclusion her A is over. You can't see her texts, so to save face you decide her A is out of the picture.

She is not currently sneaking around texting anyone. I have arrived at the conclusion her A is over because I have not seen her hiding anything for weeks.

Pushy, recommitment, and labels...............what it sounds like you are really saying is that you don't want to rock the boat.

Not totally wrong. I have no problem rocking the boat in day to day interaction. But yes, I am admittedly hesitant to rock the boat when it comes to the ultimatum issue. It's not even that I'm afraid to lose the MR or walk away. I'm just concerned about the timing, doing it too soon. Back to issue of progress or not. But I hear you, if there is in fact no progress and I'm kidding myself, then so be it.

Does this all boil down to you not wanting, or not being able, to say "no" to couple things? What is it, that is keeping you held back? Ever since you've come back fom the vacation, you've sounded differently........like you were trying to find an excuse to leave things like they were. Well, that's up to you.......but to answer your question, and to repeat myself.......your sitch has not changed. She has done absolutely nothing to show she wanted to cooperate. If things between her and OM ended, I think it happened while she was on job trip. She is hiding and texting someone, and if it was not another guy.....and if she had really broken off the A......she would have gone through.......and probably still experiencing some withdrawals, and I think she would have given you some kind of evidence of when they last texted. With all of that said, an affair, alone, does not define her waywardness. It is what is in her heart. And, may I ask what on earth have you "shut down"? As far as I can tell, things just kept beeping along, like there had never been a confrontation.

No, I can and will say no if I should. I don't want things how they were. I do believe her A ended on her job trip (which is consistent with what she said). She probably did go through withdrawals...and did give evidence of having contact with him on our trip...which I confronted and told her she was clearly not transparent and I wouldn't put up with it...and I have seen no sneaking or contact with another man since. Maybe she still has withdrawals (admittedly, I'm hoping from a 5 week texting relationship they won't last TOO long), and I fully understand the waywardness is there with or without an A. The only thing I have shut down is her possessiveness or assumption she has any control who I hang out with and can ask questions etc. I don't shut her down if she tries to snuggle up to me in bed or the like. That's why I was asking if I should. I don't disagree I am frustrated there hasn't been a bigger change since the confrontation (more remorse, etc). But there has been a significant increase in her respect level, which is why I said there is progress. We do not discuss the A, other than her initiated conversation about whether I could trust her again (and I told her what would be required).

I thought you drew a hard line when you had the big talk. ^^^^^^This seems so turned around to my thinking. One minute you don't think you should push and talking about having steps........and then you say, "But if ever do get recommitted this will be something I draw a hard line about". What about in the meantime?

Okay, I understand the confusion. I DID draw a hard line during the big talk. What I mean about after recommitment is more of an enforcement issue. Right now I do not feel like I can demand to see her phone or such if I felt the need. If we were to go back to being committed, I would feel more license to openly ask about contact or demand proof etc if I felt it necessary. Maybe this is turned around thinking. I'm not sure why I feel there is a difference. In the meantime, I am monitoring more from the sidelines. I still feel I can bring it up if there is an issue (which I did at the theme park).

What changes are you talking about can only happen slowly?

Her gaining respect and attraction. Me gaining strength and power back in the relationship. And I feel like all of those things are happening.