Affair, no feelings...is there hope? V

[44tries]

I am relieved to hear it. I was very concerned that we were losing you. I was worried that you felt too much pressure and was fading away. I want to teach/show you what I can, but if it becomes too much or pushy......just tell me. As you may can tell, I can get rather.......passionate. (Yeah, that's a good word).

No, no, don't worry, you aren't losing me. If I feel too much pressure I will say so...so far the pressure is good for me and I have been missing all your input while I've been away. My family left last night and when W goes back to work tomorrow morning and my normal routine resumes, I will be very relieved. These past few weeks have been a lot of fun, but also exhausting and nonstop going. I'll be back to posting much more frequently. Now, I will respond to all your thoughts from last week.

Well, a lot of the consequences for the more minor acts of disrespect is just you calling her out on it, and then walking away and leaving her alone. Some other things may require you to tell her.......

"You are very unattractive when you try to bully me".

"i don't desire your company when you act this way, so I will be spending the day/night being with people I do enjoy".

Those quotes are helpful. I think I got confused about "just calling her out" because a few times I thought I was, the feedback I got here was that it was weak to simply call her out without some kind of action. But I can see how saying things like you're unattractive or I don't want to spend time with you are "stronger" than saying you're rude or talking to me that way is unacceptable, etc. It's just sort of a fine line in my mind to know the difference.

Yes, generally. When you are home together and she does something.......like the "testing game", or whatever, call her out on it and immediately get ready to leave the house. No information, just tell her you are going out......and for her not to be bothering you with texts.

Okay, got it.

What do you have in mind, that will satisfy both of you? And let me just explain something about transparency. The spouse that betrayed the trust, doesn't get to choose the form of transparency. The faithful spouse decides what he will need to feel safe in the MR again. It's not like you have a discussion to see what she'll agree to do. If she is still contacting the same OM, or has a new OM (which I suspect is the case), she is not going to want to disclose her private text messages. Without seeing her text messages, what other means would you have to check? Doesn't she do all her communicating over her phone?

I definitely understand what you're saying. I guess what I meant about other ways is that I don't really feel like I need to literally read all her messages or have full access to her phone like she's on probation. Perhaps this too naive, but as I said, I know she would hate it or never allow it anyway. This is part of my frustration, though, because I agree with you completely that she should not have any say in what I need to feel safe and shouldn't have the attitude of thinking she does. It's back to the stubborn thing and her not being completely remorseful. Maybe it's part of her personality (like I said, always been that way) but frankly it's a manifestation of her respect problem/immaturity, and I think it's something that needs to change for this problem to be completely fixed. Ideally, in my mind, I wouldn't need to monitor her every message like a teenager and she would be understanding and transparent on her side, offering me enough information and openness (as in, have sensitivity over how I must feel after what she's done) that I feel safe, which I would. I agree that the only way to "check" in absolute terms would be to read her messages. However, thus far, I have a pretty good idea of everything that goes on without overtly reading because her behavior is fairly obvious. I can tell when she is sneaky and when she isn't, when she is texting or not on her phone at all, etc. Sometimes she will casually announce what she is typing if she is in on her phone in my presence, but it's never a direct discussion.

You say she's always been picky about personal space and privacy. Well, I am too. At least to an extent, but I don't keep secrets from my H. There's the difference. Her "privacy" is really all about her secrets. There should be none of that type of stuff in a MR.

I agree wholeheartedly. That's why it bothers me that there are things she won't discuss (emotionally), things she won't tell me about her past/childhood (mentioned previously), and certainly when she intentionally covers her phone so I can't see it. The first two I can understand to an extent, and realize I am different that way, but her stubbornness about being vulnerable still feels like an obstacle to intimacy. The phone stuff is obviously unacceptable and a dead giveaway to her doing things she shouldn't be doing. Since our trip, this behavior has stopped and she has not done anything sneaky or that she's trying to hide.

When did you explain to her what real transparency would mean? Before or after the theme park day?

During the initial discussion when she returned home, I probably took too much for granted in regards to the need to define it. Frankly, I think we both know full well what real transparency means, but later when she tried to say she was in compliance, I guess she tried to use the definition as if it simply meant she wouldn't be overtly lying to my face (not her words, but my interpretation). At the theme park, I made it clear that hiding her phone and texting in secret were definitely in violation of being transparent. To me, transparency is a whole package--it's an attitude along with the actions. You're either transparent or you're not and it can't really be faked or done halfway. Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking because admittedly I also have a hard time understanding mind games and manipulation etc. I'm a very open book type person.

Here is your problem, as I see it. The big talk ended without her saying yea or nay......so, nothing was really settled. So, what do you do in the meantime? What if she never offers commitment? Honestly, if she wouldn't commit when you had the big talk, I don't think she'll ever do it.....apart from her actually seeing you walking away from the M. To her, relationships are all about who holds the power. To her, submission is weakness. To cooperate with your terms is seen as giving up her control/power, which leaves her in a weak position. That's why she clings to stubbornness.

This is really good insight and to be honest, confirms my fears and what I already suspected. I feel like I'm patiently watching this slow progress toward...not really what I want. If anything, it's more likely toward falling back into the old status quo where maybe we are "back together" but it isn't clearly defined and it's on her terms. This is a MR for Pete's sake...I'm not doing that again. Thankfully, that is a decision that has already been made firmly in my mind and I have no problem walking away if she isn't willing to do it differently. My only problem is knowing when to drop that hammer, when she's had enough time...I think you discuss the progress topic further down but right now I have the mindset that I can have patience while things are moving in a positive direction but if it plateaus or backslides, I'm out.

I suppose you will know when you've had enough......at least, I hope you will. Just don't rationalize away her bad behavior. Some spouses do it, in order to live with their horrible partner......but what a way to live your life!

Totally understand. Not a life want to live. Before all this, I was probably in that category. I would not rationalize away cheating or the like, but I definitely put up with way too much of the disrespect and bad treatment, buying into her BS about not being able to control her mood swings or whatever else. I'm definitely at the point where I have grown and know what I want, and she is either on board and changes too, or it's not going to work.

I think we need to clarify about the "slow process". A wayward can make the decision to "do the right thing" and enter into an agreement/commitment with her H, although her feelings has not changed. This is what I did in my sitch. My loving feelings did not return until after I repented, which took a while.......(seems I had some stubborn issues of my own). Anyway, you are correct that there won't be any overnight changes in her heart/feelings.......not until she repents, anyway. However, if she agreed to do what you needed, she could stop her disrespectful behavior (by her own volition), even if she never felt remorse.

This makes sense. And I think what has always been most striking to me about your story is your decision to recommit before you had any of those feelings. That takes a lot of strength and dedication (I would assume) and I really think you are a rare person to make that choice. For my W, I do not see her taking such a grand stand before feeling anything. Some mind reading to follow: I think she knows the cheating and A were wrong and not something that could rationally continue (this likely due to a complex combination of reasons, only some of them due to her guilt/desire to the right thing). I think my own changes and growth are apparent to her and have had some effect (the typical response you hope for when employing LRT, GAL, etc). She now openly admits to having feelings (opposed to before) and the situation has changed ("progressed"?). The problem is she is still stubborn and has a wayward mindset and she isn't going to recommit, at least not truly, until that changes. Like you say, even if the A is over, doesn't change anything in regard to mindset. The "progress" is hopeful (I think), but again, how long should I have patience? I know that is up to me, but I am wary of checking myself and making sure I stay objective.

What I wonder about is if you are looking at the two of you being in this slow process........as in her changing from a wayward mindset. B/c she has not agreed to "do the right thing". She's made no commitment, no transparency, no change, no offer to cooperate. She won't even offer proof her EA ended. Therefore, i dare say that your WW is not in any type of change or process. She is still in rebellion. (You referred to her stubborness. Part of it is rebellion to submit or even cooperate under the conduct codes of the MR). Do you understand what I mean? She is not in the process of changing from the wayward status. I just want you to clearly understand that this is not like a reconciliation where she is trying to do the right thing to save the M. The two of you simply continued doing what you were already doing.

I see what you are saying and it is helpful. I think you are right that I am looking at it as a change from wayward status. Otherwise, we've gone absolutely nowhere. Well, I personally have gone somewhere, but the relationship, no. Are you saying there can be no change from wayward status before full recommitment? Because as I mentioned above, I don't really see why she would recommit while still wayward. Does that make any sense? Perhaps I am just being foolish. Do you suggest I demand proof of the EA ending? Demand recommitment today or I leave? If I had any notion she was still in any kind of A, I would be gone. If she was not becoming any warmer or gaining feelings or whatever you want to call it, I would be on my way out. If she was not showing me more respect, I would not be thinking there was progress. She is increasingly concerned with my feelings and caring what I think. My voice is no longer unheard and despite her aversion to words, her actions have definitely changed. Yes, they need to change further and verbal commitment is required, but I don't how much to push or demand immediately.

Yes, you are making positive changes, but she never agreed to work on the MR........right? Perhaps I am making too much out of what you said.

I'm going to continue with a new post.

Right, and I fully understand why this is concerning. Trust me, I am concerned. I guess I was thinking of it like she needed to regain feelings and desire to be in the relationship to a certain point before she is going to jump in head first. I mean, I'm certainly not asking everyday "are you ready to work on the MR yet?" I'm just looking at actions and looking for positive signs per the DR plan. I guess I feel like a big part of DB is not applying pressure and that's why I'm hesitant to rush in with demands. I get that I get to be demanding when it comes to transparency and ensuring she isn't still in an A, but as I've said, I'm fairly certain this is not a current issue.

I will respond to your next post in a separate post so I can keep quoting.