Affair, no feelings...is there hope? V

[44tries]

Let me see if I can clarify it a little. You don't have to have her commitment, in order for her to show respect. When she shows disrespect, you will call her out on it....and (depending on the disrespectful act) you will do something that basically has some type of consequences for her show of disrespect. That's why I was asking you what you did when you were in the theme park and she showed disrespect toward you. When you ignore her disrespectful actions (hiding to text her boyfriend) and her talking down to you or belittling you.....her feelings of disrespect will increase and she'll lose more attraction for you. Therefore, don't let her get away with disrespecting you.

I understand. The commitment is more of an issue for the transparency boundary than the respect one. I am fully on board with calling out her disrespect and it has become habitual for me to do so. I have a little more trouble with the consequence part. I'm not going to ignore her texting, but as I've written before I struggle with not sounding weak by simply calling her out or making a wimpy comment. But I know in this instance, the consequence should have been me walking away and leaving her there. I need to get better at quickly knowing these types of responses. In general, will the consequence be along the lines of me removing myself and no longer interacting with her? That is becoming my default response to disrespect.

When a couple has had some form of betrayal in their MR, transparency can be a means of strengthening the trust for the betrayed S, and help keep the cheating S on track while going through withdrawals. It's a way of holding her accountable, and invites you to see what she is doing. Any W who has nothing to hide, will gladly let her H take a look. Therefore, the spouse who was guilty of cheating, has to cooperate....to make transparency work. This is why there has to be an agreement about the transparency plan. She may have said she didn't have a problem with "no inappropriate relationships", but apparently, the part of her showing her text messages, fell through the cracks. If the cheater is not willing to be transparent, then you can bet they are still cheating. She can call it trash all day long, but it still spells an EA.

Completely agree. She seemed to think she was being transparent until I told her what that meant. Her response to that was basically defensiveness and evasion. The problem is that she is never going to show me her text messages and it isn't because of an A or having something to hide. She is picky about personal space and privacy and has been since day one. However, the main issue is her attitude about it. If she isn't comfortable with me directly reading her messages, we can find other ways to have transparency that satisfy both of us. The real issue is her dropping the defensive stance and understanding why extra steps are necessary at this time to restore trust (again, restoring trust is not a priority for her like it would be with recommitment). She can't seem to concede the fact that it is natural for me to need more transparency than I normally would before the A. It's the whole resistance to being in that weaker role of truly admitting she did something very wrong and needs to be fully remorseful, etc.

I believe you named respect and transparency as the two things you would need, in order to remain in the MR. Therefore, if she doesn't give you a "final answer", and the two of you continue living like a M couple......it is a win-win for her. She gets her cake with a heap of icing. Look at the vacation trip, that immediately followed the confrontation. Look at the two great fun filled days the two of you enjoyed together since returning home......living just like a normal M couple. Why would she be prompted to stop texting OM and be transparent, if she can have this nice MR without giving up her affair partner? See what I mean? She is continuing her EA while benefiting from the MR, too. She has had no consequences for her cheating. My question is why you've gone along with whatever she wanted....when she has left you dangling in the air without a "final answer" (as you call it)? I mean....what is your game plan? IMHO, you should have never agreed to go on a fun vacation when the MR is pending. Anyway, you are back home now, so what's next?

This is an issue I am well aware of and know needs to be addressed. I fully see the problem, don't worry. I don't think final answer is a good term and understand why you put it in quotes. I understand this is a slow process and she isn't going to have any overnight changes of heart, feelings, behavior, etc. If her A is out of the picture, I don't see a reason to be too pushy about recommitment or labels. Especially because she is stubborn and I think there are a lot of steps for her to go before she is near making anything "official", if that makes sense. I find myself at odds with the whole DB philosophy of non-pursuit when I think about how to demand more so that she isn't cake eating. Again, if the A is out, is it cake-eating to do "couple" things before I have total recommitment? Or is there a stage where she is in the turnaround process and I shouldn't be shutting everything down?

To be clear,44, this is your M....not mine. So, it is entirely up to you if you continue to put up with her cheating. I think you were originally hoping to build the respect and attraction back. (That was before the big talk after she returned from her trip.) Are you wanting to wait out the EA? I'm just concerned that she'll find a new OM when this one fizzles out. Her feelings for you will not return as long as she has some other guy giving her an emotional thrill. But, I won't repeat all this again, b/c we have gone over it in the past.

These are very valid concerns that I have as well. Obviously, I can't go by anything she says, which has remained that she ended the A two months ago. So I can't know anything for sure, but I have not seen any sign of OM contact since the trip. I do not think it is appropriate for them to have contact of any kind ever, and if we ever do get to recommitment this will be something I draw a hard line about, but right now I do not believe there is an active relationship between them.

She sees you dependent upon her, and she believes you are afraid of losing the MR. Threats to end the M, is a form of bullying. You cannot ignore a bully. Parents give the wrong message when they tell their kids to just ignore the school yard bully, b/c bullies become worse. You have to deal with them head on. If it were me, I'd call her bluff. Seems like it would be better than having her hold that threat over your head all the time.

This is good advice because you are right, it is effectively bullying and the best thing to do is probably to call her bluffs. I've already gained confidence that it is all a bluff, but I should just completely rid myself of any hesitations and not be afraid to be fairly aggressive about the bluff-calling.

How would I handle her threats of ending the M? I'd show her the door and tell her to get with it. But, that's just me. That's my personality, b/c I am not going to beg my spouse to like me or stay with me. I am not going to tolerate that type of treatment. If my spouse was threatening to end our M.....I'd personally walk him to the door and show him out, or I'd pack my bags and leave.

Noted.

If she won't leave, and won't shut up, then you need to be prepared to leave the house. She brings up this thing about you should leave for a couple of months.......and it's just more bulling. It needs to stop. I don't think she'll ever desire you sexually, if she can control you with these threats. I believe her "not sure if she likes the new you" is b/c she sees you being more independent, and it's not as easy to "manage" you when you're acting like a grown-a$$ man.

Her control becomes less all the time. Perhaps I can be harsher and the whole thing will speed up, but while I'm moving in the right direction and constantly reminding myself the changes can only happen slowly anyway, I struggle with knowing just how much to push.

FWIW, some men can put a shut down a lot of b.s. from their W, simply by using their authoritative voice. Do you know what I mean?

Yes, I do. I have been working on male dominance stuff which includes body language and voice and it definitely helps. Again, I don't know if I should be looking for some kind of instant change (in both her and myself), or if realistically the progress I'm making is, for the most part, what I'm aiming toward.

That was the perfect time to say, "If it is not what I think, then you'll have no problem letting me see your phone".

This was the point you should have held her accountable. She had said the day of confrontation she had no problem with "no private, inappropriate relationships". So, why did you allow this to just slide?

Great question, and I should not have let the conversation move away from the direct accountability I could have demanded in the moment. If OM contact becomes an issue again and this type of conversation occurs, I won't make the same mistake.

Well, you don't scuffle with her to get the phone. She has pretty much given herself away. You need to decide right now which hill you want to die on. If you say you are not going to stay in a M with a third party, inappropriate relationships, dishonesty, or whatever..... and she is not showing herself to be trustworthy, then it's time for you to take action. If you ask to see her phone (not after she deletes her messages) and she refuses, then you need to start taking steps to separate. I think you know it in your heart, but you had rather "ignore" it. It boils down to this......she is contacting her OM, so what are you going to do about it?

Understood and agreed. As I mentioned above, OM doesn't seem to be a present issue. If the contact had continued or resumes again, I don't have much tolerance left (not that I should have had any to begin with). I can be patient and do the whole limbo thing if there isn't a third party, but if the lies go on, I have to be done. This was essentially the message I sent at the theme park and I have no real way to know it's effect other than that I haven't seen OM contact since.

I am relieved to hear it. I have never seen anything in your posts that hinted at self-righteousness. You should know that I would have called your hand on it.

This is great to hear and I know you would It is most likely just the unnatural feeling of removing myself from the bad-guy role.

How did you respond? Did she bother to tell you what the test was about? This is very unacceptable behavior, 44. She enjoys pulling your chain.

I told her she was unbelievable and walked away. She did not directly say what the test was about and I don't think it was even coherent in her mind, really. It boiled down to feeling like she was losing power and testing to see how much she still had i.e. could she get me to set aside my time while I was busy to prioritize her. I can see right through this now, so it isn't going to work.

So, she doesn't like you being distance, but she wants to have space!

Let me interpret it, b/c this is written in WW code.

You being distant = You being unavailable to her.

Her having space = Her having privacy.

Nailed it. Luckily, I am learning this code. Yes, it made no logical sense to complain about the distant environment and then also cry for space. However, I was no longer bewildered. It makes perfect sense in WW speak.

This is an example of how a WW will pull the old switcheroo by putting words into the H's mouth......and it's usually something about not sure he can ever trust her again, yada, yada. It is WW b.s. Don't start telling her anything about your capacity to forgive, etc. Don't start trying to convince her that you'll forgive her, b/c that has nothing to do with her little game here. Don't say a word. Just look at her with a poker face. She needs to be concerned that you might not forgive her! Stop reassuring her that you are eager to forgive, or that you've already forgiven her. If she should ever truly become remorseful and repent, then you can tell her.

Great reminders. Still have to stop myself from trying to meet the WW with logic or be fooled into thinking her concern is real. One question, is true remorse/repentance going to coincide with recommitment or could those be separate states/events?

Of course she is in contact with him....she just admitted it! Why else would she be so secretive? She can use little quips to describe her affair, trying to make it sound insignificant, but it was an EA. She is still contacting him b/c she is addicted to how it makes her feel. Don't believe affair partners change their status from AP to just friends. If they are just friends, then she'll have no problem when you reach for her phone to look at her messages. That is what transparency is all about. The cheater cannot hide messages, and have secret/private "friendships". I guarantee you that she would not stand for you privately texting another woman!

HA, absolutely not. And I will never accept them being "friends". I can't control her and if we aren't together she can be "friends" with whoever she wants, but like I said before I will have none of it while I'm still here. The secretive behavior has thankfully stopped, but I am wary because of exactly what you say about the addiction. I'm not letting my guard down.

This conversation was to secure her position. I don't know how you responded, but you are afraid to push too much, so you must have sounded as if you were encouraging her to work on the MR. IMHO, when a WW is using these type of comments....she is testing her H. She is not serious about working on the MR. She is merely letting him know that she is still in charge. It would be better if he didn't say anything, and let her wonder what he's thinking.

Understood. So my question is, when can I start showing any encouragement to work on the MR. Wait for her to explicitly go there? Or at least cut out all the back and forth securing her position stuff? I'm assuming it will be an obvious difference, but I'm also afraid of being too optimistic...remember slow, subtle changes are the name of the game...

44, it is going to continue to be tabled! This is how she stays in charge of the relationship. Can you not see it? Why on earth are you waiting for a "final answer"? Remember after the confrontation talk, and how she left things unanswered? That kept her in charge and kept you dangling. She's done it again.

I see it.


Right now I am staying vigilant about her disrespectful behavior, not getting comfortable with the status of OM, and continuing my self focus and growth, GAL, etc. My family is visiting and I have had long days, no normalcy to my routine or being able to post, which I am so ready to get back to (as much as I enjoy having them here). My GAL is going great; almost overwhelming. I have people inviting me to do things all the time and I'm trying to find balance. I have learned more about myself and my NGS (fear of displeasing people, saying no, etc).

W and I are sharing the bed while my family visits. It is amazing how passive aggression and manipulation are sooo imbedded into how she communicates. I don't think she knows any other way and that is a little scary. She is so stubborn about not wanting to seem too positive about anything/me. If she wants me close to her she tries the old "I'm cold" trick. Before my family arrived, she came to the bed a day early and was again making sure she clarified there was some reason she was sleeping there. Some of that stubbornness is subsiding though. There are days she is pretty relaxed about having her guard down. She is definitely warmer, treating me better; more of the good, less of the bad. I need to make sure I don't let my own guard down and lose any ground on the respect front.