Affair, no feelings...is there hope? V

[44tries]

I copied part of the account of the confrontation when she had returned from her military trip. Did you state any boundaries to her? This part is the closet thing I could find that appeared as an agreement: She agreed I was right to ask for no further disrespect and that it can't continue. Also, she had no problem with no private inappropriate relationships.

She agreed you were right, but did she agree to stop her bullying and disrespectful treatment? Did she agree to NC with OM? You say she had no problem with it, so I assumed she agreed to it. But, she has not lived up to it. In that conversation, did you say there would be any consequences if she continued to contact OM? I just need to know where you stand now.

The two boundaries I stated were the ones we had discussed--respect and transparency. The problem is that without her recommittal I don't really have the ability to enforce them since they were originally framed as requirements for a recommitted relationship going forward. She agreed to stop the disrespect and this I can (and am) enforce(ing). It still happens, but I am way past the jumping when she says frog stuff. The transparency is more of an issue because she claims she is transparent! And then turns it around on me to claim I am not. I don't know how to enforce this boundary because if she wants to be non-transparent, she will be, plain and simple. My internal response to this crossed boundary is what is actually driving me toward wanting nothing to do with her.

Back to your initial thread after returning from the vacation, you said:
How would you act toward her after she apologized? How did you respond when she would threaten to end the MR?

Passive, which is a problem. I acknowledged the apology in the briefest way possible and didn't change my mood. Threats to end the MR I just straight up ignore because they are outside of my limit of rationality. I would love to hear your thoughts on having stronger responses, because I feel if I actually open my mouth it just turns into a nasty argument. I need to break that same old dance cycle where I argue logically against her manipulative antics. I need to feel confident I can quickly defuse it and walk away the "winner" of the clash.

Your thinking seems to be more of a coping strategy when she bullies you. This goes back to what I was trying to tell you yesterday. You are trying to work around the main issues of her bullying by thinking she is undermining herself. So what if she is undermining herself? She doesn't see it. She only sees a H who will not stand up to her bullying him. Telling her she is being rude, or that she owes you an apology is not strong enough. You can word it differently, and may have a little affect the first couple of times, but eventually you are going to need to deal with it by using actions.

I completely understand. I am trying to get a better grasp on what those actions should be so I have them coming as second-nature.

In other words, she is not honoring any type of transparency, and you aren't holding her to it. Look 44, it makes absolutely no difference the content of her messages with OM....or how many times she contacts him. She is hiding her texts, and she's contacting him, which violates transparency.

100%. But she will deny she sees it that way.

This is not acceptable. The cheater does not get to do these things and continue on in the MR.....unless you are okay with having an open MR.

The issue is she isn't continuing on in the MR. So she thinks she has licensed herself. What do I do? Tell her her license is phony?

See how you are trying to make it sound "ridiculous"? This is part of your coping mechanism.

This is insightful.

Now this is her being manipulative. She can accuse you or twist things around to put the blame on you....make you feel guilty, and she knows you will bend over backward to retreat to your nice-guy ways. Remember, I said she will use the guilt card? This is an example of how she uses it to control you.

Got it. I see it clearly and recognized it at the time. She can no longer get me to chase at all by trying to blame me, and she's getting frustrated. Has been testing me over and over on it the past couple days.

This is another example of your coping mech. See how you refer to it as nonsensical comments? It was a continuation of her bullying tactics. She pulled the threat card to remind you she was the one in control of this MR. You try to brush it off and tell yourself it was just nonsensical comments. She knew full well she jabbed you with that comment. It had a purpose, and it was intentional.

Again, insightful. Exactly what I needed to hear, thanks.

44, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. This is all I have to use to illustrate. What you said to her is true. But it sounds weak. It sounds as if you are more upset that she has been insensitive and unapologetic, than the fact she is being secretive and engaging in an EA with OM. Let me put it this way. It is not about her having good manners. It is about her cheating. She doesn't get to text OM, and then just apologize for it.

Don't worry, I know. I see the problem, I'm still working on figuring out how to fix it. I can't be too direct or it's weak, and that's where I struggle. My default is to just always be direct and honest, and it really fails here.

I have noticed when you try to stand up to her, you use the "rude" word a lot. "Rude" and "apologize". These two words mean nothing to a WW. She is calloused. She is not sensitive to your feelings. You are expecting a bully to be sensitive and mannerly? I strongly suggest that you temporarily remove these two words from your vocabulary when speaking with her. They don't seem to be very effective.

This is really good advice, thanks. Cheeseless tunnel, for sure.

That was the perfect time to say, "If it is not what I think, then you'll have no problem letting me see your phone".

This was the point you should have held her accountable. She had said the day of confrontation she had no problem with "no private, inappropriate relationships". So, why did you allow this to just slide?

So what do I do when she squirms and deflects and denies? She will just fight me to the death and I don't know how to respond to that.

And what is your go-to plan when she pouts and has a pity party b/c you left the house to do something with some friends the day before? This is another form of her playing the guilt card. She wanted to make you feel badly.

That's exactly what she wanted and she can't do it anymore because I see through it. My go-to plan is to completely ignore it, if she is doing the passive-aggressive pouting like playing solitaire. If she comes at me with accusations, I say something polite and diplomatic that essentially says, "I'm not having this conversation." If she continues to push, I become angrier and less polite, and try to figure out how to tell her she's insane without saying those words. Please tell me how I can improve these responses.

This resentment of hers does not necessarily mean it is merited. You don't even know what she wanted or what you did to make her resentful. The resentment/disrespect factors become enmeshed after a point. Just b/c a W is resentful, does not mean the H is guilty of anything. Please get that in your head.

^^^^^^THIS is incredibly helpful, thank you.

Here's the thing I see in you. You are trying to change positions and put yourself in the role as abuser. For you, it would be so much easier if you could be the one at fault, b/c you would have no problem with remorse and apologizing for doing whatever. You want to take the place of the bad guy. If you were the abuser, and she was wanting out of that situation, then she would be a walk-away W. She is clearly not a WAW. Sorry, but you just aren't the bad guy in this case. You are too nice, too gentle, and too passive for this military WW. She likes to control you, and she'll stoop to whatever level necessary to do it.

This is all exactly what I'm starting to realize and I am removing myself from that abuser role more everyday. I am no longer blaming myself for things or underestimating her. But I am concerned about becoming too self-righteous.

The book is not about wayward wives! Please, just put it down b/c it is scr@wing with your head. You are not an abuser! She has a wayward mindset. You cannot apologize away that waywardness. Do you get that? You still want to use a form of nicing her back by being sweet, understanding, compassionate, etc. Those are wonderful traits in a MR.....but it just won't cut it with a WW.

Makes perfect sense. I will throw it away (for now). Recognizing every form of nicing her back and eliminating it from my plans is high on my priority list right now.


Whew, it has taken me three days to write this post because I have been so busy and have to stop and come back. Apologies if it is disjointed and super long.

Aside from being jam-packed, I had a fun, pretty positive weekend.

Friday night I went to my GAL friend's birthday party (had a fantastic time). At first, W was obviously unhappy. She called to me while I was showering and getting ready to tell me she lost her wallet and no one at work could find it, she needed mine. I said sure, it's by the door where it always is. She then comes up the stairs and point blank demands I go get her money out of an ATM. I said you're welcome to take my card and do it yourself, I'm not sure why you are asking me, sorry I'm busy and you know that. That actually sounds polite compared to reality, because with her demanding rather than asking, I just wasn't having any of it from the beginning. But here's the real mind-bender: She gave up and went back to watching TV; I go downstairs and her wallet is sitting right on her desk in the office! I ask her what's going on and she freely admits she was testing me.

She then initiates an R talk. Essentially, she tells me she doesn't like my detachment and the distance between us. Me: "Uh, okay, well what do you expect? Sorry I have to do what's best for me." She said she can tell I have changed and she isn't sure she likes the new me (my potentially wrong mind-read: you are no longer a pushover and that frustrates me, but I also have more respect for you). She went a lot into how she doesn't think I could trust her again and she will always be criminalized, etc etc. I told her I know my own capacity for forgiveness, but that perhaps she is in a different place based on her previous comments about not knowing how to forgive (my words, not hers, but an essential summary). She said she has been struggling with whether or not she should come to me and tell me all the details so that the record is straight and I know the truth. She also said she knows I think they are still in contact, and tried to assure me there is nothing there and if they do have any (infrequent) contact, it's about work (don't worry, I'm not eating this up). She said [the affair] was all talk and "talk is trash".

She flip-flopped a lot asking these sort of questions about if we could get past it, saying she still thinks she needs space, and also being pretty open to what I suggested. I didn't want to push too much, but I got the sense that if I proposed something specific, she might be willing to do it. Then again, she also brought up me leaving for a couple months again so who knows. The thing about her fixation on needing space is that she doesn't really know. She won't say she wants a trial separation, she won't say she has a final answer and wants to be done, she won't say she wants to commit to trying again, etc. I asked her to look me and the eye and tell me she really wanted me to leave (temporarily) and she couldn't. The conversation ended with her saying she wants what is best for both of us and I should think about it and if it's more comfortable for me to stay here, she supports it. The topic is tabled once again and I leave for the party.

I got home (very late) and she was sleeping in the bed. I climbed in and she rubbed my back and asked if I had a good time. We slept, not cuddling really, but close, touching. That day we did some errands and went to a movie and dinner and an outdoor concert. No other friends, just the two of us, we had a really nice time. It's hard to describe, and I kept wondering if it's all in my head, but it's like I can tangibly feel the dynamic changes. I can tell when she is feeling closer without her actually doing anything different. It's slow and ebbs and flows, but that day I had that feeling like "hey, the pool is definitely getting warmer". Her being genuinely nice to me and not disrespectful probably helps.

Then yesterday. Another good day, we hung out with a friend, went swimming, and he came over for dinner and drinks/games. The metaphorical pool was still feeling tangibly warmer. We made a lot of food, snacks, and such. At one point, we were making cookies and the friend was outside. I am thinking in my head that I cannot be imagining how warm the water is getting. W and I make eye contact, lean closer to each other past the point where everyone watching the movie knows you're about to kiss, and she says "do you want to kiss me?" So I did. Just a short, sweet kiss like you would give while cooking together and that was that.

I have to say the thing I am most happy about is her telling me how much I have changed. That tells me my efforts are getting me somewhere. I definitely think I have at least gained a little respect back at this point (and apparently a bit of attraction). I am treating any positive signs as just that and keeping my head down. Remembering it's a marathon and nothing is in a hurry. I still have a long way to go. I can also see my newfound objectivity. I am no longer hyper-focused on the idea of reconciling, but rather in doing what is best for me.