Affair, no feelings...is there hope? V

[44tries]

Do you have to muster up harder feelings for her in order for you to implement some of the advice? I'm sure it must feel very uncomfortable and perhaps unnatural, b/c you seem to be a gentle person. You have been in a very manipulative relationship for a long time, and it must cause you to question your feelings a lot.

I wouldn't say I have to, because I am logical enough that just knowing it is the "right" thing to do can push me to do it. But it certainly becomes a lot easier in moments where I can get myself to feel angry or know she literally just sent a text to OM, or whatever. You are spot on, Sandi, I do question my feelings a lot. I only ever had good intentions and wanted to be the best, loving H I could be, but I can see now how everything became about her and she became manipulative and power hungry. I simply never considered she could be so selfish and therefore I was blind.

To be clear, I don't want you to harbor hard feelings for your W. Those type of feelings will result in you becoming a WAH. If your goal is to have a healthy MR, then don't swap the positive feelings for negative ones. Make sense?

I understand, and this is exactly what I was referring to in my previous post. Hearing all the advice telling me to just drop her, walk away, etc feels like it is encouraging me to have the feelings of a WAH. I know that those negative feelings are not required to be able to walk away, but again they make it a whole lot easier. However, even Stosny talks in his book about how sometimes the most compassionate thing you can do is let them go. So, it doesn't have to be out of bitterness. I just don't know how to heal the longing feeling of still loving someone if you let them go out of compassion.

I felt the vacation trip was much, much too soon following the events in your sitch. But I knew you were going and nothing I said was going to prevent it. During that time, you lost touch with your support system, and it probably set you back. She is contacting the OM, manipulating you, etc. If you called her hand on anything.....I didn't catch it in your posts. I understand not wanting to "ruin" the trip, as you probably thought you'd be doing......so now you are pretty much back to the starting line again (with her). I believe once you can grasp the correct concept of how you should feel vs the actions to show, you'll be okay.

I don't disagree with you one bit. I do think it set me back. I would definitely not have initiated the trip at this time, but she did and perhaps I wasn't strong enough to turn her down. It didn't help that I wanted to go on the trip regardless of anything to do with W. I did not call her out until that last day of the trip, when my anger did boil over and I simply told her I had had enough of her shadiness and she shouldn't assume I would want to be friends much less family in the future as she seems to somehow think this is still possible. The problem, I know, is that my actions do not back this up when we are right back to being friendly the next week. This is why I still don't quite know how to not be "all or nothing". How do I show I want nothing to do with her during times she is disrespectful, but be fine when she is friendly and we have fun? It feels like everyday I wake up and have to decide "should I detach and do my own thing today/borderline ignore W or accept her invitation to come to her work or go to dinner, etc?" I desperately want to grasp the correct concept and feel very frustrated with myself that I have not fully done so already.

You love this woman with all your heart. As long as she is respecting you and the MR, then by all means.....show all those warm, tender, affectionate actions that are bursting to get out. She will see, "When I respect my H, I get wonderful acts of love in return".

This is partly what I'm unclear on...she can't be respecting me and the MR at any time right now, right? I feel like I'm running hot, then cold all the time in response to her moods, which is the opposite of detachment. Like today she was totally nice and friendly, wanting to plan workouts with me, play video games, go to dinner, etc. Do I engage or not? Doesn't it undermine my withdrawal tomorrow when she will inevitably start getting jealous and petty because I'm going to a birthday party on Friday?

What happens if she doesn't respect you? What happens if the lines become a bit blurred for you and you aren't sure if it is disrespect.....but it seems she takes advantage of you, likes to dictate what you do, reacts petty when you do something for yourself, etc. If you continue with the warm affection or subservient behavior, she'll think, "Hummm, I get his wonderful acts of love regardless of how badly I treat him. My sex desire for him is gone. He is not what I admire in a man. I can treat him anyway I want, and get the same results".

You'll lose her positive feelings, if she can manipulate or boss you and still get the warm, fuzzy actions from you. Does your love stop? No, but you have self-respect and your values of how others treat come into play. When you refuse to succumb to her bossiness, or comfort her pettiness, or be understanding of her cheating behavior, or give physical affection when she belittles you....then she sees, "44 is stronger than I gave him credit. I admire him for not taking any of my cr@p behavior. I miss him spending time with me, and I miss the affection he once gave. I miss the closeness we once had. I want to treat him better, or I might lose him completely".

That's kind of the way it is in a nutshell. Of course, it's not as easy and quick as this sounded, b/c a bad situation has been created, and she feels in total power over you. She is not going to give up that sense of power easily. You have been in a subservient mode for so long that it may take a professional therapist to help you get out, IDK. I do think you have blurred the lines between feeling one emotion and doing another action. If we all based our actions on our feelings, the world would be more messed up than it already is. We base our actions on our values.

This makes complete sense. Again, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be responding differently now depending on how she treats me day to day or if I should just be viewing her as perpetually disrespectful right now. I understand your point on feeling one thing and acting another way, based on values. I can do that; I don't need to "feel" it to act on it if I know it's right. The problem is being confident in every little scenario about what is the "right" way to act. Like you said I am so out of practice, it's like building this muscle up after years of being in a cast.

It makes sense, but I'm telling you it doesn't have to be that way. I wish I knew how to tell you that you don't have to think of her in derogatory terms, in order to stand up yourself. We teach people how to treat us. If I tell you that the only thing a WW respects is strength, then tell me why it is so difficult for you to show that strength to your W? What do you see in your mind when you think of a man of strength dealing with a wayward W? I'm just curious to know.

It is not because I don't want to or am not willing, but because I lost my "natural" ability to do it. Like you mentioned earlier, it is not comfortable and I question myself constantly. I know I can do it, I just need to keep putting in the work and make sure I am not doing the two steps forward, one step back dance all the time. To answer your last question, I see a man who is intolerant. I think of all the guys on here who talk about showing your W the door and not caring about losing her because there are so many better things in life to fill your time with than a WW. Outside of no longer giving her the time of day at all, I can see strong responses to individual acts of disrespect. Like all the dialogues you have written to me as responses to her manipulation and selfishness. Those are strong. But I draw a blank when it comes to "normal" daily interaction.

I so hope that you have not developed the mindset of an emotionally abused spouse. If you haven't, there's a good chance that you will, continuing to subject yourself to this type of treatment. Can you see how you make excuses for her, try to blame yourself, find reasons to believe it's not as bad as it may sound to others, etc. What led you to read Stosny's book? Nobody on the board is going to blame you or find fault if you feel abused. If you do, then I suggest you get professional help with it. By that, I'm not trying to get rid of you or anything. I'm trying to get to the heart of what's really going on with you.

I'm not sure what the mindset of an emotionally abused spouse looks like, exactly. But I hope I have not developed it either. I would not argue with you if you told me my W was emotionally abusive. In fact, she was worse in the past. There was a time when she was verbally uninhibited and if she had not recognized it, apologized, and changed, we probably would not be having this conversation right now. I do see how quickly I make excuses for her or blame myself. I think of the very first post I wrote here (and I see a lot of NGs with WW post the same stuff at the beginning, desperately trying to find all the ways they failed), but now I have removed most of the blame. I know I am flawed and contributed to the problems, but I know now that all the little things I came up with at the beginning are not the real reasons for the breakdown. My main fault was allowing the dynamics to become what they are.

I was led to read Stosny's book because I was looking for more material on how to respond to a W filled with resentment. Of course, the main "action" part of his book (the one I read anyway) is actually written for the resentful spouse. I did gain insight on the importance of GAL, however, along with some interesting thoughts on boundaries (he talks about how they are not drawing lines in the sand or really anything outside of yourself; rather, when you are in touch with your core self and values, the boundaries come naturally and are a part of you). I don't really know how to answer if I "feel" abused. I have always had a very healthy self esteem; I do not tend to internalize blame or allow others to make me feel bad about myself. There have been times when I have realized how my W has damaged my self esteem. I can easily see how a more vulnerable person in my position could have been made to feel quite low. But I think I have known all along what my true worth is and that it's my W's problem, not mine. I have sort of the opposite problem to hers; she detests vulnerability whereas I give too much of myself too freely. I may think I am giving without needing anything in return, but my self discovery in recovering from NGS told me I in fact needed more than I thought.