Quote: This is exactly what I would expect an LD to say. It is up to the HD to do the changing and the ultimate change the HD must make is to change our internal attitudes and become LD.
SD, I hope you won't take this the wrong way. I've come to love you like a brother, so this is gonna be hard, but this is the last time I'll bother replying to you here until you are willing to post something at least halfway intelligent on the subject. When you begin to read PM, I think the first thing you will lose (I'm hoping) is this "us against them" mentality. That is REALLY bugging me about you right now. Not because it makes me feel one way or another about myself, but because it is really embarrassing to read a buddy posting something like that. Really embarrasssing...
Corri: I think a bit of good old fashioned communication could have eliminated the "several nights of cuddling" and then blowup incident. Your H has been indoctrinated, as most HD people have been, to not turn every cuddletime into sextime. So when you are cuddling, he has no recourse for "letting things happen naturally"..he is totally dependent on YOU to take it to the next level. So he waits patiently for several nights and then blows. He is a bonehead for not communicating clearly with you, but I think that you could have communicated with him also. Something along the lines of "Let's cuddle tonight and see where it takes us."
YOU have to trust him that he is not going to make every cuddling opportunity a bid for sex. He won't. It might seem like it to you but that is because the two of you have different ideas of what is a reasonable amount of sex to pursue from your partner.
HE has to trust you that you won't get offended by him wanting to turn cuddletime into sextime and also he must learn to trust that the majority of his advances will not get turned down.
Also, I know that I really appreciate it when my H states his wishes clearly upfront. I am not a mind reader and have no idea what his heart's desires are. So if he says, Tonight let's just cuddle and see where it leads us. That is an immense relief to me. I know where he is coming from and I know that I am not going to step on his toes by turning a perfectly good cuddling match into something "ugly" by sexin it up.
I know that Schnarch says to be yourself and ask for what you want, etc, but your H is not on the same page as you are. He is still in the "don't be a bastard and turn this into a bid for sex" routine.
Well, I have no idea if this post was coherent or not. Right in the middle, D2 pooped on the carpet (we have hardwood floors in every room but the kids bedrooms and of course that's where she had to go) and now I can't think straight.
SD: ...trying to see where I can grow to be more like the person W would find more desirable
ALERT, ALERT.....THINKING ERROR
Seriously man, I was right there with you a few weeks ago and thought that this idea is what everyone meant by "change" and "growth".
Listen, it's not about becoming more desirable to her...it's about you becoming more desirable to you, then using the strength to stand up for your values and not give a poop about what she is or isn't doing. Trust me man...I'm seeing it happen. (here comes another metaphor) Right now it looks like pebbles and sand being dislodged from a big stone wall as I shake the earth...the wall isn't moving but it's slowly starting to crumble. You can't slam yourself into the wall to make it fall...it hurts you and annoys the wall. You can't make yourself look like a rock and hope the wall finds a hole for you to fit in (by making yourself more desirable). You have to become the Hulk and shake the earth underneath the wall...repeatedly slam your fist into the ground in front of it. You aren't hitting the wall but you are making the wall question what it's vulnerabilities are.
Now that's some dang good metaphorin'
-Dave (the hulk)
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Just Curious, what happens when the LD spouse refuses to do this themselves? Gridlock? Or move on to bigger and better things?
I don't think the differentiated spouse would let the LD spouse off the hook to revert to the status quo. I don't think the LD partner will have a choice but to change or leave and it might get to a point where it is not their choice. If they leave, then they obviously have an "issue" that is worth protecting more than the marriage. They won't leave with the sense of bigger and better things...they will leave feeling defeated by their own issues. But I don't think it would get that far. At some point, when the HD has maintained his differentiation for a while, the LDs issues become isolated and more clearly visible to the LD. At some point the LD is going to say "oh my god...I've got to deal with this, otherwise it will be 'me' who didn't give the effort to save the relationship". If they truly would rather choose their "issues" over the marriage then everyone will have to face those consequences. From what I've seen, PM makes no promotion of "saving a marriage for the virtue of staying married". He trusts that the reader has enough integrity to "do everything in their power" to make it work.
I'm rambling now...need lunch.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
The process I am seeing here is like what Michelle suggests. Change yourself, make yourself desireable. Make yourself happier. But is still comes down to the LD spouse. HD's can not change them. But for the marriage to work, it is a REQUIREMENT for the LD spouse to change. SO the Key piece to the puzzle is again, the LD spouse. If they are agreeable to change, then things might work out, but if they are not agreeable to change, the HD has only 2 options, accept a crappy marriage, or move on. So the HD has two choices and they both suck!
Quote: HD's can not change them. But for the marriage to work, it is a REQUIREMENT for the LD spouse to change. SO the Key piece to the puzzle is again, the LD spouse. If they are agreeable to change, then things might work out,
The LD spouse doesn't have to agree to anything, CeMar. If YOU change, your LD spouse WILL change. It is the law of cause and effect.
If you wait for them to agree to change, you will wait for a mighty long time, fella. You do not, however, have to have anyone's agreement to change yourself.
Corri, I disagree. I've done handsprings in my marriage and nothing changed. I don't believe that all people can recognize change. Any kind of change scares the he!! out of them and they retreat further, backing away completely because you are changing yourself.
It takes BOTH people in the marriage to make it work on any level. Even if that is a dysfunctional level. If only one person is working on the realtionship and the other person is not, what kind of a marriage is that? Not much of one except on paper.
Get out the slings and arrows because I am not being very supportive right now, just realistic.
