I think he's going to read the book when I am done with it. He has expressed an interest in doing so. He's been reading the LL's book, and the portion of SSM for HDs about the LD spouses... something, somewhere, will resonante with him.
He has been trying, and I can tell he is trying to put into practice things that he has read. I have to say for my H's benefit, he is willing to TRY, he IS exploring... but as you all know as well as I do, getting the concepts is not the tough thing, it's putting it into action that's the trick!
I have an enormous amount of empathy for him. I KNOW how hard it is to change... but the willingness is there, and that is all I can ask for. He's doing what he can, with what he has to work with... he's falible, and so am I. Sometimes we nail it, other times, we fall on our asses.
I think my need to 'comfort' him is what is assisting in his continued lack of differentiation/fusion thing. I mean, we're doing it together. At least I think that's what might be going on... I'm sure you are aware that it's a lot easier to see where someone else is messing up, but way harder to do on yourself, you know?
For example, if he needs me to comfort him... it proves to me that he needs me, without me risking wanting him... yes? If he doesn't need me to comfort him... what does that mean to me? Who's anxious now?
If I keep him in a constant state of need... well, then I'm needed all over the place. He, in turn, does that whole 'engulfing,' thing. He wants me to want him, but he doesn't want to want me in return.
I see us so clearly in that book it just literally drops me jaw. And this whole thing we've got going between us is what fuels my LD state... honestly, I like having orgasms. I like how my H makes love to me. So if that is the case, then my 'drive' isn't the issue at all... it's our 'fusion.'
Is that making any sense?
I'd like to say, that I have explained some processes in the book to him. This weekend when we made love, we truly, truly connected, more than just physically. I took my time exploring him... took the pressure off myself to 'get there' within some 'time limit.' He was completely willing to do that with me, and thoroughly enjoyed himself in the process... when I did that, all systems were operational and functioning a peak performance.
What we did was get close and stay seperate, like the book says. The nights following we didn't put any pressure on ourselves either, we just went with whatever happened, with no expectations attached, and it was so cool. Even he said it was.
He just happened to have a meltdown (small one), last night. I don't think it was related to anything that did or didn't happen in the days preceeding, but just his own anxiety (about other things) giving him a knee jerk...
Does this make any sense...? Can you tell if I might be missing something? Anything you'd like to add?
Quote: And if I say no to "I want sex," that is not a rejection of him, but of the process. It's not all about him and what he needs. Get over yourself and approach me like an adult, like the loving spouse that I am. Give me an opportunity to create something with you, not meet a demand.
Hi Corri - Here is my view as the HD one in my marriage. I tried for YEARS to be the adult, to give my LDH space, to give him the opportunity to create something with me. He is the one who acted like the shrinking violet and had a zillion excuses not to ML. And you LD people can say it until you're blue in the face, but dammit it DOES feel like rejection to us HD'ers. Maybe you're not rejecting "us" but just rejecting "sex" but it really doesn't feel like that. I agree with Tim - your H is probably scared to death of initiating. For one thing, he is afraid you will reject him. He's also probably afraid that if one of your nice/cuddly times turns into him wanting sex that you will then avoid any future cuddle times because you think it will turn into sex. Finally, gosh darn it, maybe he wants YOU to want HIM. Maybe he'd like it if one of those cuddle times turned YOU on to the fact that you desired him and could not keep your hands off of him.
It's easy to say he should have acted like an adult, but give him a little space because in this department he's shivering in his knickers like a little boy afraid to knock on your door and ask you to come out and play.
Wow, Corri, first I want you to know that this feels SO COOL to me, because I feel (for the first time) like we're communicating as (almost) peers. I have an enormous amount of respect for you, and that increases with each post of yours I read. To see you, the LD spouse, being the one to work on this PM stuff fills me with enormous hope.
Now, to the matter at hand:
Quote: I'm sure you are aware that it's a lot easier to see where someone else is messing up, but way harder to do on yourself, you know?
Amen, sister! I can't come up with the page number, or even the chapter, but there's one point where he talks about "what your spouse does that drives you up the wall. I'm sure you can list it right now, but it's an act of differentiation to see it in yourself."
Quote: ...if he needs me to comfort him... it proves to me that he needs me, without me risking wanting him... yes? If he doesn't need me to comfort him... what does that mean to me? Who's anxious now?
If you need him to need you, how does that tie into your self-image? Can you be your self if he needs you less? Isn't it one of the things that BUGS you how needy he is? Doesn't it make you relate to him more like a "mommy" than a wife? Maybe there's something there... only sickos want to ML with their little boy...
Quote: He wants me to want him, but he doesn't want to want me in return.
And having read as much in the book as you have, you have a much better idea why...
Quote: So if that is the case, then my 'drive' isn't the issue at all... it's our 'fusion.'
That's what I get from the book, and it's why I'm so excited...
Quote: This weekend when we made love, we truly, truly connected, more than just physically.
Have you tried kissing with eyes open? I won't even ask about O with eyes open, I'll assume that's negatory so far... You're making perfect sense, and I do hope you'll post more on these topics, because my understanding goes only so far. I think your understanding is FAR deeper, and I value your input. You said more in that one post to SD and CeMar than I have in a whole week of postings. You rock, girl...
First of all, let's not go down this road. It'll get ugly.
I've worked my ass off, honey. I was talking about my H, not about you. And just for future reference, please do not refer to me as 'you LDers.' I'm not a group. I'm a person.
As for what he is feeling, I understand precisely that he is afraid of rejection. My understanding what he fears is not the issue. I know what I said sounds harsh, but if he does not overcome his own fears, there isn't anything I can do to help him without drowning myself in the process.
I am not an ogre. I used to be one, before I really took the time to explore what the world might feel like in his shoes. Damn near brought me to my knees. And for his part, I think my H has tried very hard to do all he can to see the world from my POV. (Poor guy).
But my coddling his fears will get US nowhere. I can be empathetic. I can continue to work on myself. I can also be an adult in the relationship and work on my own intimacy fears... and God willing, my H won't bail me out, either. Cuz if he does, I'll NEVER learn to stand on my own two feet.
We were cuddling in awareness of one another, and agreed to allow our time together to develop however it would, without any expectations attached to it. By doing so, 'pressure' is removed, and helps us to be more open, honest and trusting of one another. No one is trying to manipulate or maneuver anyone. It's very cool.
He came home tonight before he left for his overnight trip, gave me a really big hug, and told me he wished we could do last night over. He would have made different choices. I told him we have plenty of time to practice.
I think that's pretty doggone good. We support and encourage one another rather than blast one another apart. Makes being on the same side a nice place to be.
Quote: If you need him to need you, how does that tie into your self-image? Can you be your self if he needs you less? Isn't it one of the things that BUGS you how needy he is? Doesn't it make you relate to him more like a "mommy" than a wife? Maybe there's something there... only sickos want to ML with their little boy...
I have to seriously think about this one. It's not something I like to recognize in myself, cause I hate seeing me as anything less than the perfect person I am...
But... I can certainly see if I AM doing this, how it facilitates the cycle, and plays on his weaknesses rather than his strengths.
God, don't you just hate it when you see your own warts...?
Quote: God, don't you just hate it when you see your own warts...?
I have some I can't even look at yet, and it terrifies me completely at the thought of letting W see them. Before that happens, I think we'll BOTH have to grow a lot!
Corri - You're right, you *have* worked your ass off. And I apologize if my not-well-thought-out post was inflammatory. Sometimes (especially in my mood today) certain little phrases set me off and it wasn't fair for me to lash out.
As Tim mentioned above, you have done amazing work and are to be commended as an LD spouse who is doing her part to try to improve the R. I suppose I'm a little jealous, too. What I wouldn't GIVE to stumble upon my hubby posting here asking for advice!
The title running through this thread is "GROW UP" and that was directed to me (SD) and CeMar by Corri. Now I have a lot of time for Corri and so I have spent all night thinking on this and trying to see where I can grow to be more like the person W would find more desirable. I wasn't going to post anything about it but reading heavyheart's account from the HD viewpoint has fired me up.
Quote Corri "if you want to b!tch for the sake of b!tching, start your own thread and have at it". Well to me one of the most valuable things this site provides is a place to get the vents and bitching off my chest so I can sleep at night and am less likely to take it out on W and in that this site has been a life saver.
Quote Corri "What I hear both you and SD saying is that you both want to control your wives". I have very little control over her. She is a very strong minded person. Most day to day decisions are taken by her and any suggestions I make are usually analysed to death and ruled out. I have made some big decisions myself particularly regarding changing my job and have stood firm against her objections. Fortunately I have been successful enough to keep her off my back about it but I certainly don't want to control her. It would be nice to be able to guide her but I know she will only do things of her own free will.
Quote Corri "Neither one of you, to any strong or lasting degree, has even attempted to change your personal or internal attitudes about yourselves." This is exactly what I would expect an LD to say. It is up to the HD to do the changing and the ultimate change the HD must make is to change our internal attitudes and become LD. I know full well that happiness awaits me with old age because W and I are most definitely best friends. We enjoy each other's company, talk a lot and share the various houshold chores etc and get along fine. Happiness will come when we are both ND and I no longer yearn for the physical touch that I have been missing. The baby steps that LDs seem to make are along the lines of back rubs and hugging and kissing but my W has never given me a back rub or any kind of rub and avoids all kissing except pecks. The best she does is pat me on the arm. I now have a little experience of what it's like to be LD because at the moment I seem to be LD. I suspect it is partly due to the dreadful hay fever I am suffering with and the medication I am using for it which makes you feel "heavy" and slows you down a bit. I can say that the LD state is a lot more comfortable than the HD state. Yes I'm worrying whare my desire has gone but I'm not at all desperate for love, desire and sex like I usually am. Perhaps LD is the new internal attitude I should strive for. SD
