Quote: LD women lose attraction to their HD mates because their HD mates are accepting them for being LD. In effect, the LD woman KNOWS she is not good sexually for the man, she does not give the man the sex life he really deserves, but the fact that he ALLOWS her to give him crap, means that he does not stand up for himself and appears weak, which causes her to lose even more desire for him.
To a degree. You cannot respect what is not there. The fact that you do not respect yourself enough to change gives your wife nothing to respect. Yet you demand that she do so.
Your wife was not put on this earth to provide you with sex, even in marriage. That is her choice. It is your choice to either accept that or not. Notice I am not at any point proclaiming you have to LIKE your choices.
What I hear both you and SD saying is that you both want to control your wives so you can feel desirable. Feeling desirable comes from the inside, not through an act of comfirmation from your spouse.
Where you say that connection between you and your spouses doesn't exist is actually a falsehood. Truly, you have such a bonded connection, such a fused sense of identity, you cannot allow your spouse freedom to be and act as they are, nor can you find comfort in who you are.
Every action you take is a manuever on your part to get your spouse to change. The fact that they resist change is an act on their part to remain a seperate being or entity. You take an action to get your spouse to act a certain way so you can feel good about yourself. They resist any action at all so they can continue to feel good about their own self.
Under this type of scenario, you reach gridlock, solid, fast and true. It is a natural occurence of a relationship, a plateau if you will, that is an indication that change must take place in order to foster continued growth.
From your own efforts, you understand well that no matter what outward manuever you attempt with your spouse, they hold firm in who they say they are, and what they say they will or will not do.
Neither one of you, to any strong or lasting degree, has even attempted to change your personal or internal attitudes about yourselves.
Who the hell wants to do that? That's hard. It's uncomfortable, it's scary, there are no guarenteed outcomes, we must confront those less than perfect aspects of ourselves, and put forth a continued effort of new ways of being and acting. Yes, it would just be so much simplier if our spouses saw it OUR way, conformed to our wants and needs, and let us stay within our comfort zones. We aren't asking for much, after all... right?
All I can tell you is, if you want to stay within your comfort zone, there isn't going to be much change. You have how many years of marriage behind you now to prove that? It is your choice to change. No one is forcing you.
You keep asking... but, how, how, how do I do that? You shut up, read the PM book and see YOURSELF in its passages, not your spouse, and follow the directions.
There are no promises, no guarantees. If you don't want to at least try, fine. But I do believe you have both reached saturation point with all here on the boards. There is nothing additionally constructive anyone can offer you, so if you want to b!tch for the sake of b!tching, start your own thread and have at it.
Otherwise, crack the book and get busy. It's time to grow up, boys, and take your own life by the horns.
Corri, Thanks for your comments. I have the PM book on order so it should arrive soon but to be honest I'm not sure if I'm going to understand much of it if Tim's comments are anything to go by. I have no problem expressing my love for her and I'm a nice guy to have around. I listen to her and talk to her and I help around the house. If I was able to accept giving of lots of love and receiving little in return we'd be perfectly happy but I can't face another 20 years of a one sided R. I'm new to the scientific approach so I'm bound to make mistakes. It's not easy trying to find the "right" way of doing things because natural instincts keep getting in the way and I know they are wrong because they have not worked for me up to now. SD
Hey Corri, Where have you been lurking? I think lots of us are absent as we get our heads around PM.
How is the reading going? Are you at a point where you can "bust my chops" on my PM thread? Between you and Tim (and now MPT), we might be able to work our way through this ourselves. Like an immersive language course. I'm bad about reading and understanding without getting hit in the head a few times. I look forward to your contribution.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: Are you at a point where you can "bust my chops" on my PM thread?
Man, Corri's been there for a WHILE! I think she could write the companion workbook for this thing. The more I learn, the more I am in AWE of her. I'm sure she's read the whole book by now, maybe more than once...
Hey kids! Let's see, in the book, I am somewhere around chpt. 6 or so... right at the end of the chapter about Hugging til you relax. Whatever that is.
I read at night, ponder, read some more, ponder, etc. So, no, I'm not blowing through it. What I think I'm doing is comparing what I learned in my own marriage counseling to what Schnarch is saying about intimacy and sex.
My C was very, very much like Schnarch, without the intimacy and sex component. So I get the differentiation thing, the emotional fusion thing, but how all that impacted intimacy/sex is quite a new concept for me. GAWD, it clears UP so many unaswered questions I had!!!!!
One of the things I am facing in my own M is that true intimacy can be experienced in so many ways other than intercourse. Intercourse is A way, but not THE only way. It is all that goes on during the process which causes or brings intimacy...
For several nights, we cuddled in bed. My H gots lots of backrubs, we talked, hugged, kissed... both of us were tired and things didn't progress beyond that, but both of us felt 'satisfied.'
A few nights pass, and all of the sudden, he is dumping on what we have shared in previous nights and starts complaining because all those nights 'we shoulda been having sex!' Well, no, we went with what was... if you want to have sex, then let's begin, but don't create a drama and an issue where none is needed. We created those scenarios together! So you are at a different spot today... leave yesterday out of it!!
Now, I could get all huffy about this, certainly, but it is not my issue. It is his issue. If I let it become my issue, I will be doing he AND myself harm. I see him struggle and it is very hard for me to not rush in and 'make him feel better.' But if he doesn't learn to grow up and take responsibility for his half of the relationship, we will stay stuck.
Too often I go in and rescue him by feeling guilty about NOT having sex... and there has never, ever been ANYTHING for me to feel guilty about. If he thinks for one minute that griping and complaining are going to get me turned on, he's got some painful lessons to learn.
I facilitate his need to fuse by feeling guilty. If I feel guilty, then that confirms I have something to feel guilty about! There is no feeling guilty in this -- we either take the time we need to develop our emotional connection or we don't... but WE have to do it together.
So now I am grappling with my own need 'to comfort,' and what the heck that says about me.
You say some pretty interesting stuff here. When I first read it I was thinking "There the LDr goes again. Making their reduced drive the HDrs responsibility!" After re-reading it though, I think you have some pretty big (and insightful) points.
I really think there is something to be said for being able to internalise one's "needs" and be sexually "self-sufficient." However, no one is self sufficient in any way. Physical needs must be met through food. Intellectual needs must be met through external stimulation. Many emotional needs must be met through interaction with others. Some sexual needs must be met through sex. It just gets soooo tricky because what is one person's legitimate need is another person's neediness.
You said: "For several nights, we cuddled in bed. My H gots lots of backrubs, we talked, hugged, kissed... both of us were tired and things didn't progress beyond that, but both of us felt 'satisfied.'"
Obviously, this turned out to be false. Either he is not communicating effectively, or you are not taking the time to try to interpret his communications.
I wonder a little about your discussion of "guilt" and feeling guilty. My wife has been struggling with this too. I tell her not to waste time feeling guilty but to focus on resolving our issues.
You are certainly right in that you have to do it together. It sounds like your husband needs to boost up with communication skills and I'll bet he probably needs to stop worrying about how you are feeling so much and start acting on what he is feeling (I have been mucho guilty of this).
Good grief, there is so much going on in this thread it is making it difficult to think!
I have thought a lot about this "my issue" vs. "his issue" stuff. I always feel a bit uneasy when this stuff comes up. I suppose, deep dowm, it is just that simple and that we are all responsible for our own stuff, even if we are not "self sufficient." Your hubby needs to take charge of himself and decide, "Is this relationship important enough to me that I suffer sexually for a while...maybe forever??" or "Are my needs legitimate and are they worth stepping out of my safety-zone and ending my marriage." Pretty tall order...and I am bellied-up to the bar right now, trying to make the same choice.
The thing is, for those few nights, neither one of us was suffering. We were paying attention to one another, and neither one of us was trying to take our interactions anywhere other than where they led.
I think what my H has difficulty doing with me, however, is expressing when he DOES want it to lead to sex.
If any of those nights had led to sex, fantastic. I wasn't pushing it to go anywhere... I was enjoying being with him. He said he felt the same way.
I think my H is feeling anxious (about other things), and when he gets anxious, he looks to me to comfort him. But I don't do well with demands. If he wants to have sex with me, fine, let's slow down, take our time, so we BOTH can enjoy it. I have no interest in letting him make use of my body, for it is my body after all. Not that he does that... but a statement of, "I want sex," does not get me from 0 to 10.
And if I say no to "I want sex," that is not a rejection of him, but of the process. It's not all about him and what he needs. Get over yourself and approach me like an adult, like the loving spouse that I am. Give me an opportunity to create something with you, not meet a demand.
Corri
P.S. Meat, if you haven't read the book, I highly recommend it. I think Tim and AD would second that.
Quote: I think what my H has difficulty doing with me, however, is expressing when he DOES want it to lead to sex.
Corri, without knowing him except through your posts, I would agree with that statement, and even offer an explanation - he's afraid of rejection. Yes, that is HIS issue, and it's due (I now see) to his level of differentiation (or lack thereof). He is fused - his whole concept of self goes into that bid for intimacy, and rejecting IT is rejecting HIM (in his mind). But you know that...
Quote: I think my H is feeling anxious (about other things), and when he gets anxious, he looks to me to comfort him.
Again, a differentiation/fusion issue.
Quote: And if I say no to "I want sex," that is not a rejection of him, but of the process.
Corri, I know you have gone over this with him... but it sounds like he still doesn't understand that, or trust in it. Is HE reading PM with you? Does he show any interest in it?
