Thanks so much for posting. I've spent some time reading through your thread from the beginning - a lot of similarities to my sitch, so I really do appreciate your insight. It's the first time someone not connected with me has given me an objective perspective (aside from my IC), and it is very reassuring to have someone on my side, saying nice things about me and the way I behave. I never really know if I'm doing the right things as a father and husband but I always just do my best. It feels good to get your validation - so really, thank you so much.
You are right of course, on pretty much everything. I shouldn't be pining after her, I shouldn't want to be with her any more, the way she has treated me, how much she has hurt me, the lengths she has gone to deceive me, and what I have discovered about her as a person. But my world only turned upside down 2 months ago, and I have only unearthed all these things since then. Before that she was clearly hiding how she really felt for a long time, and it had me fooled, so much so that I do still am that doting husband and love her, for all her faults. This just doesn't change overnight, but does dwindle the further we get from the BD, the more I detach and the more I see she is actively WAW. I will get there (and will need to), but am not there yet.
I can also see that she does come across from my posts as selfish, and putting herself ahead of our children, and I think probably she hates herself somewhat for feeling that way and for getting us into this situation where she is threatening our entire family environment. She knows that when the kids find out she cheated on me for over a year (and S17 and S15 will surely ask at some point and/or find out), that this will impact their respect for her as a person and parent - but despite all that, she still keeps saying she doesn't regret it. Is sorry for hurting me, but doesn't regret anything about the A. She can't help that her feelings for me have changed, and this has been the case for some time. Or at least that's how justifies what she has done.
She does love the kids though - I can see that when she is with them, the way she parents them (quite strict, but revels in their successes and progress) and this is what makes her decision to break up what we have so difficult. I know, I'm defending her when she doesn't deserve it, but I can also see things sometimes from her side.
I am also certainly not the perfect H, and what you don't see in my posts so far are all the things she has over the years had issues with me about. I know she has written me a note explaining her feelings (although she's not given it to me yet...), and in it she lists all her gripes about things I did or didn't do that were to her detriment, dating all the way back to before we were married. She has clearly harbored a lot of resentment all this time, as if to justify how she has treated me in the last year or so. She is clear that she did not resent my travelling for work, just that when I wasn't travelling I was everything to everyone else, not capable of saying no to family, friends, often to the detriment of her. This is to some extent true - I do try to please everyone and I need to work on that, but does that give her the excuse/right to do what she did? She should just have had the guts to raise this with me sooner and make it clear what I needed to change.
She also gripes that the last 10 years I have gone from strength to strength with my business, community involvement (football club, local charity role etc) whilst she has been SAHM and enabled my personal growth. So whilst we went into the marriage on an equal footing, both strong independent individuals, I have grown personally whilst she has not, and now we have a disparity between us. Also true - but I never once stopped her doing anything for herself or tried to control her in anyway. She was free to tell me she wanted to do things herself, but always seemed content and never raised concerns along the way. Again, convenient to raise now as more explanation/rationalization of her behaviour when it's too late for me to do anything about it. I think all this will require Sandi2's spew jacket when she does eventually share it with me....
Perhaps none of the above changes your perceptive conclusions about her Juju2, nor excuses her behaviour. But it does provide a bit of balance. It also explains how far gone she is (very) given this has been festering for a long time, and it helps me realize that this is probably a lost cause, which in turn helps me detach. And I'm doing really well with that the last few days, and I think she is noticing and it irks her, which is actually quite amusing.
Anyway, thanks again. Any more thoughts/reaction to the above welcome. And I will continue to follow your story - I think I'm on thread 3..!
_______________________________________________ M47 W50 T-21 yrs M-19 Yrs S17 S15 D12 Found out about A 04/12/18 BD 04/15/18 Admitted A, name of AP and separate rooms 04/29/18 Told kids 07/22/18
And a quick update from today. Was kind of wondering if W was going to take the opportunity to have the chat this morning whilst the kids were out, but she didn't. Not sure what she is waiting for tbh, but I can wait if she can.
So I'm just carrying on doing my thing. The new me gets up at 6.15am, heads out for a run or a swim (the latter today), and then am back in time to see the kids off to school. She has noted this is new, but is now used to it. I take myself to my home office, she takes herself to hers, and we carry on with our day. The odd pleasantry during the day about the kids or some chores or other. No R talk.Then the kids come back and we are back into our 'be a normal parent' roles. Wonder how long we'll go on like this for..
One interesting thing did happen though - S17 messaged me to see if I would bring his sports kit to school at lunchtime as he had forgotten it. I said yes. I left with it telling W what I was doing as I went. Was out for maybe an hour. Came back and then she went out, but I noted from her search history that she had googled "car tracking services" at the exact time I went out. Made me smile. She's clearly wondering if I'm up to something! Funny. I'm not of course, but funny to get some insight into what goes on in her head. Put me in a good mood, at least for a little while. LRT does work!
I do have some questions as to how to play the R chat when it does eventually come, but I'll perhaps send later. Interested in your expert views - whether to (1) agree with everything she says, validate and go with whatever she suggests (within reason), or (2) defend myself on the gripes, tell her how I feel (so at least its a 2-way exchange of views) and then agree a way forward.
DB'ing would say (1) is the way to go, but (2) will be very tempting...
Anyway I'll be more specific in my next post. Got work to do.
_______________________________________________ M47 W50 T-21 yrs M-19 Yrs S17 S15 D12 Found out about A 04/12/18 BD 04/15/18 Admitted A, name of AP and separate rooms 04/29/18 Told kids 07/22/18
Validating does not mean necessarily agreeing with everything she says. That said, more along the lines of (1) is the way to go. The fact that (2) is tempting you should give you a clue that it is the emotionally selfish response...
M: 40 W: 37 T: 20 MR: 13 S13, S9, S4 BD: 1/29/18 Sep: 4/23/18 (I moved out) 8/24/18 I come home, she moves out
If you want to get out of the hole, drop the shovel.
Thanks for your input Hongaku. I really appreciate your help.
I've read some of the validating guidance and would need to practice to make sure I don't come across as contrived or false, but I think you're right. Option (1) makes me the bigger person, and it also puts it all on her, without giving her added ammunition from me to validate her decision. I'll do some work on it when I get chance.
_______________________________________________ M47 W50 T-21 yrs M-19 Yrs S17 S15 D12 Found out about A 04/12/18 BD 04/15/18 Admitted A, name of AP and separate rooms 04/29/18 Told kids 07/22/18
There are a couple of books that focus on the subject of validation that have been useful for me thus far. I Hear You by Michael Sorensen and Connecting Through Yes by Jack Ito. Either or both of these could be potentially useful in learning to have the right perspective on validation and that it does not mean simply agreeing with everything.
You are angry, hurt and feeling betrayed - and rightfully so. But, you also at some level are compelled to reconnect with your W. If you decide that you want to have a new relationship with her, you are going to have to let go of your pain and feelings to an extent, or rather put them aside for the time being. All that matters to her right now are her feelings and probably the kids. You are in her mind the reason she is unhappy.
Re-read DR and I suggest really following the rules put together by sandi2. In fact, I see sandi2 dropping deep wisdom all over this forum and you would be wise to reflect on her advice. That is if you decide you want to have a go at reconciliation with your W...
M: 40 W: 37 T: 20 MR: 13 S13, S9, S4 BD: 1/29/18 Sep: 4/23/18 (I moved out) 8/24/18 I come home, she moves out
If you want to get out of the hole, drop the shovel.
Thanks Hongaku. All good advice. I've not read DR but will get it along with on the books you suggest on validation. I do still want to reconnect with my W, but only if she gets to the stage where she feels the same, and only if there is no OM. I've told her this, and this is what she's thinking about, although as I say, I think she has already made up her made and is just biding her time to be sure.
I've gone back to read Sandi2's advice in lots of her posts. Deep wisdom indeed and so accurate in portraying what I'm seeing from my W. Scary really. I'm still learning, but all this information and knowledge is hopefully making me a better person, and eventually a better partner - either for my W, if we do reconcile, or for someone else...
_______________________________________________ M47 W50 T-21 yrs M-19 Yrs S17 S15 D12 Found out about A 04/12/18 BD 04/15/18 Admitted A, name of AP and separate rooms 04/29/18 Told kids 07/22/18
So update from today. No direct R discussion again, but last night my channels suggested she was planning to go to see her parents this weekend - about a 3 hour trip each way. Something she had previously said she'd like to do so as to be able to tell them what's going on in person, and in particular seek advice from her mother who she thinks went through something similar with her father a while back (they are still together though, albeit have an odd relationship, probably because her mother is very similar to my W, or vice versa).
My information then proved correct as she then came up to me to tell me that she was going to see them - just overnight on Saturday. We didn't discuss why (we both knew why), just talked logistics for the kids. The more I thought about what I've seen from her this week through my channels, the more I am sure this is just her informing her parents about what is about to happen and not actually seeking advice to help with the decision making. Nice of her to tell them before me.... As far as she knows, I'm still waiting patiently for her decide our fate. Fortunately I'm way ahead of her, but still, this really does show her true colors and makes me all the more able to detach. Juju2 was right.. selfish and self-centered and not caring one jot what this is doing to me.
Today then, my channels revealed more information that made me now 100% certain she is planning for D. I saw her wish list about what she'd like do with the kids, the house, our assets and our business, as well as her concerns about me being difficult in mediation. Too right I'll be difficult. She deserves nothing less. That is going to be a whole story in itself, but we'll leave that for later posts.
Anyway, this just helps me continue my LRT even more, focus on the kids and start to plan for my life without her, which is something I'm pretty well resigned to now. And to be honest, the more I see of how she is behaving, the more I am thinking do I really want to reconcile with this woman anyway? I can't actually believe my feelings towards her have moved so far so quickly, but this is all of her doing. Revealing her true self, which is not the person I married, and not the person I want to be with for the rest of my life.
Maybe when we do tell the kids and then separate, and reality kicks in, she'll start to feel differently about me, about us, but right now she is not capable of doing so, so focused she is on finding her own space (and probably being with OM). And thinking of me as an adversary. Actually, that's one of the hardest things to take, apart from the A - the fact that only a matter of weeks ago, I thought of us as a team, her as a partner that had my back, and I had hers, and now we are opponents, watching each other's every move, suspicious of motivations and what each other is up to. She has done all this, and I absolutely hate it. Hate it.
And oh how great it is going through all of this whilst living under the same roof.. really loving this arrangement we've got at the moment. Just hoping that, when she does eventually deem its the appropriate time to put me out of my misery, I can persuade her that she should move out as soon as possible (against the legal advice she has of course received). It's getting unbearable, and I'm certainly not going anywhere, that's for sure. Anyway, don't want to jump the gun. Just know things are not far from heating up, so just prepping myself for that conversation.
Any more tips on how to handle that R discussion welcome, given all the information above. You can tell I'm starting to get myself wound up, and will need to take a deep breath to be able to stick to the DB-style approach when it comes to it.
What else can I being doing between now and then? I plan to speak to my L again, but anything else?
How should I be with her before and after she gets back from her trip?
_______________________________________________ M47 W50 T-21 yrs M-19 Yrs S17 S15 D12 Found out about A 04/12/18 BD 04/15/18 Admitted A, name of AP and separate rooms 04/29/18 Told kids 07/22/18
"Nice of her to tell them before me...." WWs always are moving toward D, at least in their head. So her "not telling you" was her "telling you". You may not have wanted to believe it because, well, you didn't want to believe it.
You keep mentioning "my channels". Stop keeping tabs on her. Shut those channels down. You are not detaching nor LRT if you are keeping tabs on what she is doing and why she is doing it.
What else can I being doing between now and then? I plan to speak to my L again, but anything else?
How should I be with her before and after she gets back from her trip?
If you are LRT then you already know the answers to these questions.
You do not initiate contact. When she initiates you stick to business about the kids. If she expresses feeling validate them. (Read the validation thread.) Otherwise you are silent. When around her you are happy, upbeat, pleased. There is a spring in your step, a smile on your face, and a sparkle in your eye. Even if you don't feel it. Fake it until you make it.
This post shows you are far from detached, let alone practicing LRT.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Thanks for your post Steve85. Sounds like I needed a wake up call, so thanks for being so direct. In my defense, I'm just using the information I pick up to help me prepare better rather than harboring any hope of reconciliation, but you're right, I should stop.
I do most of the things required for detachment and LRT - its just a little tough because we are still living together and need to act normal for the time being in front of the kids until we make some decisions and eventually tell them what is happening.
For the R discussion, yep - will do all those things. Helpful to get the reminder and will just focus on what you suggest.
Thanks again, I'll try to do better over the next few days.
_______________________________________________ M47 W50 T-21 yrs M-19 Yrs S17 S15 D12 Found out about A 04/12/18 BD 04/15/18 Admitted A, name of AP and separate rooms 04/29/18 Told kids 07/22/18
I saw her wish list about what she'd like do with the kids, the house, our assets and our business, as well as her concerns about me being difficult in mediation. Too right I'll be difficult. She deserves nothing less.
As for this - don't. Mediation and splitting assets is all just business (even when it only involves personal assets.) It is NOT the place to bring your emotions about the divorce (IF one is happening) nor the place to get revenge.
Hard as it is you need to separate your emotions from the business aspect of this. By all means fight for your rights. Don't be a pushover. But nobody really wins when assets are split and it's not the place, as I said, for emotions. If you do mediation you should have your own outside lawyer as well who can advise you on what's fair and what a judge would be likely to grant you in court. Yours sounds a bit more complicated than the average divorce because you have a business but there are guidelines for most things. Be prepared to negotiate some things away so ask for a bit more than you expect to get but like I said - EMOTIONS OUT.
My mediation went fairly smoothly because I was able to do this . My friend who wanted to "get" her husband for his affair spent years going back to court and in the end I don't think she gained anything extra but lawyer fees. She just kept trying to get revenge on her ex. Don't be that guy.
