Since the PM discussions keep mentioning that us HD spouses need to forget about validation from the spouse, then what exactly is sex and affection for in this new world with out validation? Should I treat it like a recreational sport, to treat sex as just a fun MEANINGLESS activity for me and the wife? I am having a hard time seeing how sex and/or affection can be treated when you drop all the validation expectations of it. For example, I love my wife therefore I want to kiss and be kissed by her. It is a way of showing love, but if we can no longer use it for validation, then what is kissing for? Just for sheer fun? Since it's only for fun now, can I do it with others?
CeMar, the issue isn't non-validated intimacy, but self-validated intimacy. Big difference. Briefly, it means you don't depend on getting your self-image reflected by your SO, you get it from within yourself. True intimacy is only possible in this way. Don't confuse sex with intimacy, or kissing, either. Both are just a path to intimacy, not the fact itself. Intimacy preceeds kissing AND sex. True intimacy comes from accurate self-disclosure, which can ONLY happen when you validate yourself in your own self-image...
If you think it's spinning NOW, just wait till you read it, and begin to see the possibilities! Yes, and I have also been thinking it would be good if someone would come up with a study guide for it, with worksheets and stuff. Might help. I do think that the most VALUABLE asset in working through this stuff would be to have a competant therapist familiar with the material to coach you through it. AtlantaDave has such a thing, I don't. I'll have to do my own work.
On that point, Scharch has some SPECIFIC advice about how to find a good therapist. It's in the part on how to know when it's time to divorce and move on. He says that NO therapist can know when it's time for a particular couple to divorce - that decision has to be made by the individuals involved. So... in a first meeting with a therapist, you can ask a question like "Will you be able to tell us if it's not working and we should divorce?" (sorry, I can't come up with a better one at the moment, it was something along those lines, but he had a better one) At any rate, he says that if a therapist will discuss ANY strategy to determine when it's time to divorce, thank them for their time and find another therapist...
Quote: Yes, and I have also been thinking it would be good if someone would come up with a study guide for it
It just occurred to me that TSSM might just be Michele's effort to do just that - provide a Practical guide. I have to read it again, though, with PM in mind to confirm that for myself, but I'll bet that's what I'll decide. Maybe for me it helps to know more of the theory behind it. Maybe it was just "too simple" for me to grasp when reading TSSM.
I think that from what I have seen so far of PM that Michelle actually has the same ideas in her books, but in a more down to earth fashion. You talk about all the changes your going to make, and this sounds like Michelle's advice to change what we can, ourselves. Sort of like to try and build ourselves back up, restoring our own confidence, etc..
That's exactly right, CeMar. Before I read PM, though, I "just didn't get it". I would read Corri's posts and think that she sounded like "You change first, then we'll talk." It sounded unfair. Even in SSM, there's a section called (I think) "Why should I be the one to change?" I think that was very much my question. That's because I saw my marriage (and W) as "broken", and I was the "injured party", and it didn't seem like anything I could change would make much (if any) difference. Even when trying the LL route, it just seemed like a lot of 'tit-for-tat', which had never really worked before. Now, though, I'm starting to see how I can make some fundamental changes in my outlook, and how THAT can change everything. It's all in finding the RIGHT changes to make. However, changes are needed on BOTH sides, and change on ONE side will create "pressure" for change on the OTHER side. However, THIS pressure will come from within, not from without.
I hate to say it tim47, but us HD guys on here do nothing but change. Heck, Corri says that I cahnge to much, I need to wait for the wife to make a move. I have read lots of guys on here that have done everything and yet the wives don't repsond. I think a lot of it has to do woth the LD wife thinking that the HD man has now learned to live like they do, and can enjoy life with much less sex then they though. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Heck I have seen bbok in stores that are all about how to change your man. These books actaully give encouragement to LD women that guys can actully reduce their desire for sex. This is the worst advice possible to LD woman. In order to have ANY hope of fixing a LD/HD relationship, both partners must change, but it is the LD partner that has the critical changes to make. The HD partners changes alone will have very little impact on the situation. That's what sucks about our situation, us HD guys can work on the situation, but the elephant in the room is the LD spouse. Us HD spouses really have no control over solving our situation, but the LD spouse has FULL control over the situation. That is why I am leary of PM, (which I just got).
Glad to hear you got the book, CeMar. Now... take a DEEP breath, now take another DEEP breath, get calm, and READ it. Start with the Introduction - it has some important information and sets the tone for the book. Read right from the beginning, and resist the urge (which I KNOW is strong) to jump ahead and "sample" parts of it - you'll take things out of context and reduce your understanding and experience of the book if you do that. As you read through it, post here freely with any questions or concerns. I think you'll begin to understand a bit about Dave and my excitement as you get into it a bit.
I hear you CeMar. I have the book on order but I can't help thinking (like you) that HD = High Desire to fix it and LD = Low Desire to fix it. The relative amount of effort we put in is like Mount Everest to a mole hill. SD
