Things moving fast. Twists & turns.(hoosjim's 15th

[JRuss]

Deliberately effing with you. That's a situation that, unfortunately, needs watching and, most likely, one final "discussion" man to man.

[DonH]

I am so happy to see things continue to rebuild for you guys. From my POV this would not have happened had you not walked out. You may remember me telling you about how an incident with my ex W turned things around and I just felt the same would happen to you. Had you not done that you'd still be where you guys were with your W only going through the motions.

As for your ex friend and the affair, did you ever find out what really happened there? If you did, I don't remember you talking about it here. Was she physically intimate with him? Did they "just" kiss or was there more, or perhaps much more? I hope you'll be comfortable talking about this as I wonder if it makes a difference? With Sandi, she never actually had sex with her AP. If it's the same with your W does that have somethung to do with both Ms (yours and Sandi) staying together. It's almost like they both dipped their toes but never jumped in. Oh, I know it didn't feel that way for either of you, I'm sure, but from afar it seems to make sence. Would like to hear your perspective.

[hoosjim]

Hey, Don! Thanks for checking in on my thread!

I had been waiting for our next MC session before updating, was actually going to start a new thread, but that's still a coupla weeks away. In general, things are going great! Right now we are taking the tack not of "how can we fix what's wrong" (because things are actually pretty great) but rather "how can we keep growing the relationship and make things continually better?"

I am so happy to see things continue to rebuild for you guys. From my POV this would not have happened had you not walked out. You may remember me telling you about how an incident with my ex W turned things around and I just felt the same would happen to you. Had you not done that you'd still be where you guys were with your W only going through the motions.

For all my mistakes, and missteps, and bungles, i still am convinced that i, make that we, may have taken the only path we could have that would have gotten us to this point of reconcilliation. Just a whole whole lot of sometimes bizarre but nonetheless interconnected moving parts. Specifically to your point-- Yes, i agree: We would not be where we are now had i not walked out that day. That's not to say i don't think we would not have eventually gotten there, but without that catalyst, without me saying "enough" and without her facing head on the grim truth of our likely breakup, it likely would have taken quite a bit longer. FWIW, i don't know that i would say that my W was "going through the motions" with me. She was trying, she just didn't trust herself and there was still a little part of her that didn't want to completely cut the cord, for whatever reason, with OM, even as they had not had an active relationship for months (and, yes, i fully and completely believe, for a number of reasons, that latter part.) But, yeah... I was done. When i left that day, i was disgusted with her. I mean, i still loved her (always will), but to see her begging with me, completely desparate, supposedly, to keep me even after she had so betrayed me and my family was just... bleah. I escaped to my friendly neighborhood pub where i had friends, support... a couple of cute bartendresses willing to flirt (and perhaps more ) with me. I was in a really great place for me, even as i was on some level mourning the apparent end of my marriage. And my W perceived this. She was convinced i was done and never coming back, and everyone i have talked to since that day backs up that perception. Credit both of us, i guess, for hanging in there and giving it one more shot. I also need to give alot of credit to our MC for calling us both in off the ledge, and for brokering that first, pivotal meet up between us as well as my subsequent return home. She (MC) has really been a blessing in our lives and, given the manner and circumstances under which she came into our lives, i can only conclude that she was divinely sent. And I am 100% dead serious.

As for your ex friend and the affair, did you ever find out what really happened there? If you did, I don't remember you talking about it here. Was she physically intimate with him? Did they "just" kiss or was there more, or perhaps much more? I hope you'll be comfortable talking about this as I wonder if it makes a difference? With Sandi, she never actually had sex with her AP. If it's the same with your W does that have somethung to do with both Ms (yours and Sandi) staying together. It's almost like they both dipped their toes but never jumped in. Oh, I know it didn't feel that way for either of you, I'm sure, but from afar it seems to make sence. Would like to hear your perspective.

I could write a book about this... and i still don't personally know the half of it, though i know all i need to know. W came clean with everything about which i still had questions... except WON they ever consummated the relationship. And on that point i have decided that my W is completely and fully contrite and sorrowful for what she did, and that i am content to move on. As i told her numerous times, i was always less concerned about where her body was than about where here heart was.

For those like you still wondering, here's the RD Condensed version:

--W suffers from several years of SSM and serial neglect by yours truly.
--OM, a fellow "football parent" on our son's HS team, "befriends" me. Honestly not a guy i have a whole lot in common with at the time, but he is outgoing, and boisterous, and fun, and I have few (like, almost none) friends at the time who i am in any kind of regular touch with.
--Very shortly therafter, OM "discovers" my W's FB page, saying "I thought you were another "Mrs. Hoosjim" I know." (Nearly impossible as my W has a very uncommon name-- and i searched FB to be sure.)
--Over time, OM contacts my W more and more under the guise of "trying to get ahold of hoosjim but i can't". He always makes a point to emphasize my shortcomings or weaknesses, though usually in a joking way.
--OM ultimately gets me to ask W out with us at some point to his favorite bar.
--At some point durign the early weeks of the 2016 football season, he starts texting her. "We have alot in common" he says (And objectively, they actually kind of do, at least superficially). "What's with you and hoosjim" (By this point, i have confided in him my marital difficulties and lack of intimacy, opening the door for his advances.)
--The texts accellerate, and my W increasingly confides in him.
--I, foolishly thinking that having my W out with my "friends" might work the same magic it did when we first met, suggest that her bff might like OM's favorite bar. (I did not know at this point about bff's infidelity against my own friend, or about their pending separation and divorce).
--W starts meeting bff at OM's bar for "girls nights out" (Which also include OM-- the bar is VERY small and OM is ALWAYS there.) She goes more and more often and stays out later and later. She also becomes very looks-conscious, buying lots of new (and provocative) clothing, getting her hair done and making herself up. She also becomes shy about me seeing her naked. This is just after the end of the football season, early November 2016.
--At some point in here, OM invites her "to coffee" just "to talk" as he can tell she "is hurting" and that "as a friend" he just wants to be there for her. W goes, and two things happen-- OM hurries ahead to open door for her, and then, when leaving diverts to help an elderly man out the door. W goes to car and bursts into tears because 1) These are things she has wanted to see from her spouse for all these years and 2) She realizes she has feelings for OM.
--By late November, they are texting and messaging dozens and on sometimes over a hundred times per day. They are also calling each other numerous times, particularly on W's drives too and from work, and at some point (probably December) these calls become "intimate" and approach "phone sex" at least on the OM's end. He blandishes compliments on her constantly, saying how amazing and sexy and etc she looks.
--W suggests we invite him by to watch football after Thanksgiving dinner, which we do (we have no local family). At some point she is fooling around on piano (she had childhood lessons) and OM sits down next to her (he is an amateur musician) and starts doing same. A look passes between them as they play something and my first alarm bells go off, but i ignore them. "Couldn't be" I say. At some point in the evening, W says something along the lines of "Oh OM, where were you 25 years ago" (We had met 24 years previously).
--Early December, OM comes by to help me work on season video for the football team (we were both on camera/media crew and i was the videographer). OM has a few too many beers and stays the night in guest room. After he goes upstairs, my takes a blanket and goes downstairs and sets up to sleep on couch. I thought it odd at the time, but did not put 2 and 2 together, as we often slept apart under the guise of "our bed [censored] (it does)" and "my back hurts".
--Things continue to progress with the calling and texting, until i overhear their phoncon in late January 2017. At that point, it is still "platonic" though also clearly way across the line and they are clearly at least contemplating more (as in a future together-- W says "you know if we were to ever get together that we would have to wait a long long time before we were ever seen together.")
--I confront wife. she denies it is anything worrisome... "just flirting." I imply, but don't demand, she should cut contact. At this point, i am certain based on their convo that they had not yet had any intimate sexual contact.
--contact between them thins out to almost nothing for 2 to 3 weeks, then, something happens. Not sure exactly what, a meet up at a bar, a party... but they reconnect and things rekindle, and in fact accelerate. It shows in W's demeanor at home, where she had started to warm up to me a bit.
--It is sometime in here, mid to lat Feb of 2017, that she has the "night in the hotel" with OM. At some "night out" locally, i think on one of her "girls weekends", they all meet up with Om and his friends, and W becomes separated and, too drunk to drive and with no Uber account, goes back to OM's hotel room with him. This much i know: OMs male friend was also at hotel, i think booked in the same room, W was drunk but does remember going back, and in a convo between them later she coyly/playfully asked him "Did you take advantage of me?" This would seem to indicate "they did" but, then, other things they said later "If we ever do, I'd have to go on "pharmaceuticals" (i/e birth control)" seem to indicate not. W has acknowledged the incident but not offered to supply details.
--From this period, March 2017 through early July 2017, contact is carried out at her work or through her bff. W uses girls' weekends to take side trips to meet up with OM, and uses girls' nights out to go to OM's bar. To the best of my knowledge, there are no nor is there opportunity for any sexual intimacy. She does exchange "a couple of kisses" with him, which she cops to in one of our earlier MC sessions, and does close dance with him at a bar one night.
--JUly 4th weekend is last in-person contact before the final meet up and blow up this past Easter. W and bff and one other GF had a long-scheduled beach weekend on for that weekend. OM found out about it due to his close friendship with them, and said, "well me and _______ and _______ should go too!" No one objects to this. OM does, however, book the same hotel as the girls. My W finds out about this three weeks before the trip and tells bff that "she is not comfortable with that", so bff moves their reservations down the beach by three blocks. In the days prior, W is with me and the boys at a different beach a couple of hours away. W vacillates during our vacation "maybe i won't go (to the girls weekend)". I had known about the trip in advance but doubted OM would follow them all the way out there. She ends up coming home with us following our last day but then decides to turn around and go meet her friends there the next day. She texts me regularly the first day so I will "feel safe" with her being there, but then at going out time she demurs, saying it will "be hard to keep doing this because i want to visit." At this point, they meet up with OM's group and hang with them for some part of the night. At some point, W becomes separated from bff (I know this because she calls bff at 1230 AM and then calls a cab company). Next day, W is hung over and says she is staying in. She calls me Sunday, the day of her return, saying she is going to take a long, long walk on the beach to think. When she returns, she tells me that she "does not want to be that person, 'the cheater." At that point, i do not know Om was there. I discover he was at their beach about three weeks later when dumb-a$$ posts pics on FB of him being there that weekend. W does not acknowledge until this past spring. She does not elaborate beyond-- "We saw them a few times while we were there."
--LAte July 2017. I find my W's final burner phone. I walk out for the first time, but not "for good", and I quickly return. We start our intensive MC and I confront OM a week later.
--Early August 2017. OM begins regular calling of my W at work. Sometimes she talks to him, sometimes he leave messages telling her how much he is "into her" and letting her know where he'll be on particular nights. W does not reciprocate beyond answering some of his calls, and, thanks to transparency steps, she does not have the opportunity to meet up with him without me knowing.

You know the rest. Way i see it i know the following. It was EA only at least until Feb/MArch 2017. There were two really opportunities for it to have become a "PA"-- that night in the hotel and the night at the beach. Knowing my W as the "sexual being" that she is, i tend to think at least something must have happened on at least one of those occasions, even if not full intercourse. But I honestly will probably never know for certain unless she says "I did."

FWIW, i am somewhat in agreement with those that think that an EA can be MUCH more damaging than a PA. It's the fantasy. Once you are between the sheets the fantasy is more difficult to maintain. OTOH, if a couple truly connects, that skin to skin intimacy can solidify a relationship as well. I think it depends on degree to acertain extent and is case to case. In my own sitch, strictly in terms of the affair, if i had been able to engineer the end of the affair somehow, say by walking out immediately, i think it would have been much easier and quicker for my W to get over that relationship. Unfortuntely, in my own case, there was so little left of our MR (we werent even really friends) that me walking out at that point (Feb 2017) would very likely have been a "Meh. Okay, see ya!" event for my wife, as opposed to the traumatic "Come to Jesus" moment it was this past Spring after we had started to reconnect and she had had a chance to really start believing in the new me.

Hope that helps.

[hoosjim]

Addenda: Wow! If that's the RD Condensed version, I'd hate to see the unexpirgated version! LOL

[hoosjim]

The thread is dead! Long live the (New) Thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2795560&#Post2795560