Newbie In Need Of Guidance #3

[rminer]

Ignore the post above. It is not finished - I clicked post instead of preview.

[SteveLW]

waiting to respond..............

[rminer]

It's been almost three weeks since my last post and a few things have taken place.

My W went out with my sister one evening a few weeks ago.

As a little background, I did tell my sister about the A about a week after I confirmed it. I needed to talk to someone and she was the only one I could turn to, so...

The following day I spoke with her and she told me about the evening. She said that my W started a conversation about our M (not the A though) without being prompted and much of what she said mirrored what my W told me - that she feels our M was hurt by the house and wants to be rid of it. My sister suggested that all of my work on the house was for my W (the same thing I told my W but did not say to my sister) and my W agreed, but still wants to dump it. My W also said that it is hard to be married to someone who doesn't want to be with you.

She did acknowledge that I am making an effort to do more with her and the family though.

My sister also told me that they talked a lot about our R and my W kept saying she wants to move out of this state. She gave me the advice that I should make it happen quickly If I think it will save my our M.

I asked if she thought my W was still in the M or has checked out. She said that my W is still in it from what she could tell and that the way my W was talking, she thought it sounded like the A was over. I know it isn't though...


The following evening my W and I went to a concert in a very small venue - approximately 200 people - and then to dinner. It was probably the best time we have had together so far. On the way out, I put my hand behind me to lead through the crowd and she took it voluntarily, which is something new. On the way in I gave her a compliment on her appearance and the new dress she bought for the occasion. Her response was not "thank you" or something similar. It was more like she didn't think I was being scincere or was just being nice. Most of the time I give her a compliment this is how she reacts now.

A few days later she asked me if I would go to the store with her to look for some tile. The youngest two kids ended up going too and on the way, my W reached over, took my hand and held it all of the way to the store. On the way home, I reached over and took hers. We ended up forgetting something, so we had to run back out and on the way, she again took my hand. This time, out of habit, I kissed it and she smiled. This is something I have always done 90% of the time she holds my hand. On the way back I took hers again. It was kind of comical in a way - each exchanging gestures - but she seemed to like it. We have been in the car together multiple times since and I was waiting to see if she would do it again, but she hasn't. Three days ago we were in the car again, so I took the initiative to take her hand thinking maybe she was waiting for me. I again got a smile.

There have been a few other behavioral changes as well. One time she came home to find me doing my laundry and she apologized for not getting to it. A few days ago I was putting some of my clothes in the wash again. She noticed and insisted that she do it instead of me. I don't mean "Hey, I'll do that for you," I mean she all but pushed me out of the way. I didn't say anything about her not doing it or make a big deal of it either time. I simply started doing it and these are the reactions I received.

She has told me she likes me twice in one form or another. Once I made a joke and she replied "just when I started liking you again" and once I took a drink of her beverage without asking and she said "you're lucky I like you" like she used to do. May not mean anything, but it is new.

My W also seems concerned about how I feel about her too. I proposed an idea that would affect both of us and she shot it down. I wasn't happy about it, but I understood and didn't make a big deal of it. She was concerned that I thought she was being the bad guy and started backtracking on her decision. I told her it was fine and let it go. Two nights ago I came home to find something new in the house, asked where it came from and got a generic answer. Yesterday she felt the need to text me and ask if I was upset about the purchase and explain to me where it came from.

We have a wedding coming up this weekend and she asked me to go clothes shopping with her. While we were out she was asking my opinion on the dresses she was trying on, which I would expect, but she actually took my advice. The following day she started texting me pictures of the shoes she was looking at asking my opinion, which is something she would normally reserve for our daughters. She never asks my opinion on shoes.

My W also made the comment as we were passing a jewelry counter that she wishes that we should have gotten platinum wedding bands since she likes silver better. She still doesn't wear her wedding rings. Doesn't mean a whole lot, but I found it interesting that she would say it...

She is also being more transparent about things, telling me when she goes out, who she is with and when she will be home. Last week she told me that an ex-boyfriend from high school contacted her (I knew him too, but we were just acquaintances) and they talked for awhile. She also told me the things he was saying to her. I told her that he was hitting on her and she responded that "he was just being sweet and besides, he's married." I again said that he was witting on her, then slipped and said "people don't respect wedding rings anymore." Dead silence. Oops.


She has also given me her entire schedule for the summer, including her itinerary for the vacation she is taking with her friends, down to where they will be and what they will be doing each day. I asked for none of this except for what involved me.

My W has also booked accommodations for the family vacation she is planning for us. She has booked hotels for the two of us this fall for Homecoming for the college we went to and for a concert we are going to see in the city, thinking we can make it an all day event.


My W and D21 finally had their talk a few weeks ago and things seem to be improving between them somewhat. I asked D21 a few general questions about it, telling her she doesn't need to give me details and asked her if she feels better. She said she does, but my W still denied the A when D21 brought it up to her during the conversation.

Overall, there really hasn't been anything negative going on between us as far as interactions go. More and more it is seeming that we are a married couple again, minus the intimacy. I know this will never be the case as long as the OM is still around, but it is the way things are seeming.

We were at a Scout event last weekend, which both my W and OM were at. I could tell from their interactions that there is still something there, so I know the A isn't over.


At this point I have to decide if this is the right time to confront about the A. She is showing a lot of signs of coming back and is showing quite a bit of warmth towards me which seem very genuine. I don't know if these signs are real, or just part of an elaborate hoax to keep things as they are.

What I am doing seems to be working, at least on the surface, but I have no way to tell for sure.

[SteveLW]

rminer,

I wanted to encourage you to stay the course. My W showed many of the same changes early on in our turnaround. She became transparent to a degree that made me feel uncomfortable, but also subtle little changes. I remember the first time I felt she was laying towards the middle of our bed, as opposed to the magical hover (as AS refers to it) hanging off the edge of the bed. Kisses hello and goodbye, hugs, things that had been missing for weeks prior to BD, and for 4-6 weeks after.

I think these changes say more about where the A might be. While they may not be completely out of contact, it sounds like 1 or both are moving on from it. Obviously I don't know this for sure, but at some point you may want to address the fact that keeping your son in that troop may not be the best for the MR, and that you may need to find a new Scout Troop to join.

Yes, these changes suggest what you are doing is working. I would hold back a bit on initiating the hand holding. The reason is that she may have used the hand holding as a control method, and you starting the initiation has given her a sense that she has you back where she wants you.

Intimacy takes time to rebuild, so I wouldn't make any assumptions around that. Just stay the course!

[ovrrnbw]

Sounds like good progress Miner, stay self aware. Don't believe things just bc you want to - I know I have been guilty of that a lot.

Don't feel required to respond to everything she does or asks right away if you aren't sure how you feel about it too.

You guys can't stay in that scout troop if she's serious about a good marriage with you. What's the point in her being around the OM all the time? I'd be skeptical about individual vacations too.

She's going to be mad if you bring up either of these points, prepare yourself for that. Her anger is just her anger, and you're free to tell her how you feel IMO.

Take your time, talk to your counselor, friends, etc and collect yourself first. Good luck!

[rminer]

Sounds like good progress Miner, stay self aware. Don't believe things just bc you want to - I know I have been guilty of that a lot.

I'm trying not to believe anything as much as I want to. My trust for her is gone to the point I assume she is lying until I see otherwise.

You guys can't stay in that scout troop if she's serious about a good marriage with you. What's the point in her being around the OM all the time?

No, S8 can't. The plan is to get him out ASAP. I just need to figure out the best method.

I'd be skeptical about individual vacations too.

Don't think I'm not. I just know there is nothing I can do to stop her.

She's going to be mad if you bring up either of these points, prepare yourself for that. Her anger is just her anger, and you're free to tell her how you feel IMO.

Knowing my wife, once I force the issue mad won't begin to describe her. I anticipate her fighting it all the way, especially with the state of mind she is in.

[rminer]

I wanted to encourage you to stay the course. My W showed many of the same changes early on in our turnaround.

I feel like she is being sincere, but I just don't know. My fear is that she is putting on a tremendous act to cover things up and I'm feeding in to it. I say this because I want so badly for these signs to be real, I could be reading more in to them than what is actually there. I'm not embellishing anything I say she is doing, but the warnings I've read about the WW's mindset makes me very leery.

If I stay the course and don't call her out about the A yet, will things ever really get better? Will her feelings for me ever have a chance to return the way I am doing things?

I think these changes say more about where the A might be. While they may not be completely out of contact, it sounds like 1 or both are moving on from it.

You could be right, but to me there is still way too much contact for one of them to be moving on. I could be wrong, but the way they interacted the other night tells me this too. This is where my confusion comes in. I don't know if both of these could coexist and both be real.

I know I don't fully understand the WW's mindset and I probably never will, but even with all of these positive signs I have the overwhelming gut feeling that she is just cake eating.

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I have no trust for her at all right now about anything. I just can't bring myself to do it.

Obviously I don't know this for sure, but at some point you may want to address the fact that keeping your son in that troop may not be the best for the MR, and that you may need to find a new Scout Troop to join.

Absolutely true. She is the treasurer and does most of the event planning, so needless to say she is heavily involved with the pack. Getting her to agree to move him will take getting her to end the A. At least that will be the "easiest" route.

It will be a struggle to accomplish this with the A going on, but it needs to be done - without using S8 as a pawn. Not sure how I will do it because she is home all of the time and will control it more. Me saying "because I said so" won't work either. My W is as bullheaded as they come and will do the exact opposite just to spite me. Scouts is her excuse to be in contact with the OM.

I would hold back a bit on initiating the hand holding. The reason is that she may have used the hand holding as a control method, and you starting the initiation has given her a sense that she has you back where she wants you.

Very true. Me taking her hand was more of a test to see her reaction. I didn't think of it the way you put it.

Just stay the course!

Are you suggesting I still keep my knowledge of the A quite and don't confront yet? It is getting very hard and I can feel my emotions boiling over at times. They are getting harder and harder to keep in check. I have almost made sarcastic comments referring to her A several times recently, but I have caught myself. I'm not sure how much longer I can go on like this.

By her own words, she likes me again. How will she ever begin to love me again with the OM in the picture? I'm not sure doing what I am doing will encourage her to end it.

The original intent of doing things the way I am was to gain her respect back and show her I could be the H she wants and that I want to be with her. I think I am showing her I want to be with her, but I'm not sure I am accomplishing the rest.

I just feel like I am fighting a losing battle.

[LH19]

How will she ever begin to love me again with the OM in the picture?

She won't. A person can't be in true love with more then one person at a time. Accept maybe on a reality TV show.

What are the positives and negatives of blowing the A up?

[SteveLW]

rminer it is up to you. Only you know what you can tolerate and for how long. None of us can tell you that. However, most A have a shelf life. And it tends to be relatively short. So waiting is not a bad option if you can handle it. Then there is also the option of telling her you know, and that you don't care she can do what she wants to do. There is some anti-divorce writers that suggest that once an affair is acknowledged and the LBS says "I am letting go, do whatever you want" that the mystique and elicit of allure of the affair is shattered. Most WWs are excited by the forbidden nature of the affair. Once that nature is gone, they lose interest.

DBing feels like losing most of the time. In reality the feeling like losing is the best chance of winning. Most around here tell you that usually it is the LBS that finally has had enough and initiates D. Only the individual LBS knows when that is.

[rminer]

She won't. A person can't be in true love with more then one person at a time.

That was more of a rhetorical question, but point taken.

What are the positives and negatives of blowing the A up?

Pros: Getting some of my self respect back, getting my kids respect back (I think I've taken a hit with them), relieving stress by getting it off my chest, feeling like I at least have a little control over my future, not feeling taken advantage of, possibly ending the A, to name a few.


Cons: W running, ending M, losing everything I have worked for, losing my family, losing my kids (No, part time parenting is not the same as having them), different kind of stress, more hurt to the kids


Both lists could go on. I don't see a clear cut winner with either list because no matter which way I go, nothing is certain. Both lists could lead to the other in the end. I just can't decide which is most likely to lead to the outcome I desire.