[Zues126]

What I've learned from my failed marriage is that I'm not in control of my life. When I was a kid I thought I was. I thought I was special, that I could manifest my will in the world and make whatever was in my head turn into reality. I had evidence for this; I had a ton of gifts and achieved some pretty amazing accomplishments because of those gifts and beliefs. But they say pride comes before a fall, and boy did it. After my wife left I hit rock bottom. I finally looked up at the sky and acknowledged that however strong or smart or talented I thought I was, I wasn't capable of running the show and I didn't always know what was best. I can't remember who's signature says "You can be right, or you can be married", but it's sure true. I wish I had known that a little sooner.

My counselor told me that those that don't believe in God think that they are God. He didn't mean that literally. He meant that in the sense that they inevitably elevate their feelings and thoughts as though they were gospel. They use them to steer their lives. And they aren't really a very good compass. One thing I've come to believe is not to trust your emotions, because they bounce around like the needle on a scale that you just stepped onto, and they can change with time. And then not to trust your thoughts, because your thoughts are generated by your emotions and because of this are just as deceptive.

One benefit of religion is it's not the beliefs that we decide are convenient to rationalize our behavior, nor the beliefs that we subscribe by finding people that agree with us and going along with them. No, they are ancient established values that have evolved and been revealed through practical application through thousands of years of us living together. They aren't always what we'd like to believe, but that's the whole point. If we never defer to something beyond ourselves we're back to square one- we are God and follow our own gospel.

I don't know if you're religious or not and I'm not sure it matters. I've met people that go to church that don't apply it, and I have met others that applied religions values without knowingly declaring they are followers. In reading your posts though you are sure bombing out a lot of declarations.

Look, it takes me about 7 seconds to see that you are a brilliant and strong woman. The smarter you are the more in danger you are because it's so easy to think you know it all. You can dazzle yourself with high level analysis and logical constructions and powerfully compelling narratives that match your feelings and feel true. Yikes. Look out!

But I don't think it's because he loves me even though he says he does. Love does not carry on this way for this long in this hurtful of a manner. It can't....or it isn't love. It's something else. I don't know what.

You can read minds and define other people's feelings?

I'm not displaying the person he wants to be married to and I'm not sure I should be to be honest. That person is reserved for people I like and who like me. I've never been good at hiding the way I feel about people. If you're always nice and sweet, how will people know when their behavior is not acceptable?

Very nice sleight of hand to rationalize why you allow your resentment to shine. Of course you get to have boundaries. If a dog bites you then you don't put yourself at risk of being bitten again. But that doesn't mean you hold a grudge against that dog and treat it harshly to punish it and show the dog it needs to change before you'll treat it better.

Do you believe in personality disorders?
I.e. you believe he has a personality disorder. My XW diagnosed me with many. In fact, if you read these threads for a while you'll see almost every LBS diagnoses their WAS. Narcissism is most common, then bi-polar or sociopathic. Abusive of course. Oh, and all the family of origin diagnosis as well. In short, yes, I believe in disorders, but I believe for every correct diagnosis by a LBS there are probably 100 red herrings. People all behave as if they have a disorder when the marriage is at their worst.

Yes, I've met one or two people in my life that wrestled with so many demons that they were way off the far end of the bell curve in terms of how destructive they were and had to distance myself. Here's a good questions. Does he get along with anyone else? Does he have friends? Any relationships with his family? Any pals he shares hobbies with? To be fair, if he literally has alienated everyone he's ever met and the rest of the world refuses to ever speak to him again then he probably has some real problems. The guy I'm thinking of has a reputation that is so unanimous that everyone that I know that knows him practically crosses themselves when his name is mentioned, or tells stories about the incredible and horrible ways he's hurt them. But if he manages to get along with coworkers and friends or has at different times in his life, and it's just you that are experiencing the worst of the issues, then I think it's your relationship and not him.

I haven't pushed the boundaries too much. But there have been enough occasions to let me know that this can never be a normal relationship

As much as I want someone to tell me my M is savable I just don't think it is. And I do also believe a healthier person would be gone.

As in, we'll never be normal because he's not normal. Ok, but how close can we get? It has to be closer than this "never be a couple again" crap. I don't know where my line is. But I know I can't live like that. He has GOT to dial it back some.

Now you are all knowing and can see all future possibilities, what's possible, and know exactly the way to get there? If you're so smart and in control then how did you end up here? Oh wait, you were human then and are omniscient now, you're different and it's now all his fault?


I didn't answer any of your questions though I can and am more than happy to. This just keeps jumping off the page and I had to talk about it.

Where's the humility? The "I don't know how things got here and I don't know how to fix it, I do know that I've made horrible mistakes and have been hopelessly wrong and bullheaded, I'm ready to surrender all control and instead try to understand what God wants from me and how I can serve His will?

As long as you think you have it all figured out you're going to keep getting the same results. And you can make all of your predictions of doom come true. God loves us enough to allow us to experience the consequences of our own mistakes.

[HelenaJ]

One benefit of religion is it's not the beliefs that we decide are convenient to rationalize our behavior, nor the beliefs that we subscribe by finding people that agree with us and going along with them. No, they are ancient established values that have evolved and been revealed through practical application through thousands of years of us living together. They aren't always what we'd like to believe, but that's the whole point. If we never defer to something beyond ourselves we're back to square one- we are God and follow our own gospel.

I agree that religion has done an excellent job at defining and enforcing societal norms and expectations.

I don't know if you're religious or not and I'm not sure it matters.

I'm not.

In reading your posts though you are sure bombing out a lot of declarations.

I'm not sure what you mean?

Very nice sleight of hand to rationalize why you allow your resentment to shine.

Point taken. Not being nice doesn't feel right to me either. I actually am working on it despite how I "feel" about it and I have asked for advice here about that very issue so if you have any specifics, please feel free to share with me. I also happen to agree that one should not be driven by emotion. I'm a very emotional person, quick temper. Not being driven by emotion will certainly be a lifelong struggle and journey for me.

Now you are all knowing and can see all future possibilities, what's possible, and know exactly the way to get there? If you're so smart and in control then how did you end up here? Oh wait, you were human then and are omniscient now, you're different and it's now all his fault?

ALL his fault? That's not fair. I know I didn't say that and I hope I didn't portray it.

Where's the humility? The "I don't know how things got here and I don't know how to fix it, I do know that I've made horrible mistakes and have been hopelessly wrong and bullheaded

Look, I've been at this for a long time. My H and I have been together for 26 years and nearly all the struggles we have are ones that have been present since day 1. Personally, I've been in counseling for many years and I'd be a complete fool to not know how things got here. The fact that I know that is in no way a representation of my inferred lack of humility but a result of a TON of introspection and book reading and endless thinking about my relationship with my H. I still don't know how to fix it, but you know what? I'm still here. Still trying. I have not made "horrible mistakes". I've made one horrible mistake and many other "normal mistakes". Don't get me wrong, one horrible mistake is enough but I do not have a serial pattern of horrible mistake making and that makes a big difference. I have paid very dearly for that mistake and I have admitted every bit of it, faced up to it not just with him but also family and my close friends and I stuck it out because I do believe in integrity and character above all despite what that screw up says about me. I do have a large amount of getting what I deserve, reaping what I have sown type of remorse where that issue is concerned.

I'm ready to surrender all control and instead try to understand what God wants from me and how I can serve His will?

What control do I have that you think I should surrender? I'm not religious and actually have some pretty unconventional thoughts on it so none of that type of talk resonates with me at all. Going back to your third paragraph about needing something to defer to, I've not given it much thought but for me, that would be my husband and my children. I have given my husband a GREAT DEAL of latitude in defining deference for me.

As long as you think you have it all figured out you're going to keep getting the same results. And you can make all of your predictions of doom come true.

This would be a tragedy indeed. But I need specifics. When I explain H's behavior, tell me how I can better respond. How I can change my thinking on the issue, give me another specific perspective to show me where I might be over extending my perception into reality.

God loves us enough to allow us to experience the consequences of our own mistakes.

I'm not sure what to think about this statement but I don't think it's very helpful considering we ALL make mistakes. It sounds like you're saying I'm getting what I deserve. And if you are, fine. Just say it.

[HelenaJ]

I also meant to respond to this-

Here's a good questions. Does he get along with anyone else? Does he have friends? Any relationships with his family? Any pals he shares hobbies with? To be fair, if he literally has alienated everyone he's ever met and the rest of the world refuses to ever speak to him again then he probably has some real problems.

He does not have friends; he had a best friend in high school that he kept in intermittent contact with throughout the years but I would say they are now estranged. He does not have any group hobbies so no, no pals there. He does have coworkers and there are only two or so that he gets along with well enough that he mentions. He used to mention others but hasn't in years so I guess they don't talk anymore. H does not like people and people usually don't like him to be honest. When I first met him, I thought he came across as extremely arrogant and I think that was probably a pretty accurate first impression. I wouldn't say he alienates people exactly, it's just that he's very stand offish and people tend to sense that about him. My family thinks he's "weird". He has a good relationship with his family yes, although they tend to text or call me as opposed to him when making plans or chatting.

[Zues126]

I get it Helena. As I said you are a brilliant person that has worked very hard to understand your situation and your alternatives. There is no doubt you know the details of your sitch and have thought for thousands of hours about it.

My only point was I think that your conclusions (the ones I put in blue in my last post) aren't always useful or even correct. 26 years of forming firm beliefs and opinions about your sitch brought you to where you are today. I think I lost my copy of Divorce Remedy in the move, but it talked about starting with a "Beginner's Mind" which is all about a lack of preconceptions and the open-mindedness of someone that was brand new to the subject at hand. So my recommendation would be to read a copy of DR and consider a beginner's mind.

I was certainly intending no harm or disrespect, nor suggesting you deserve the pain and suffering you're in. I have the utmost respect for the heart and work you've put into your marriage and yourself and that is reflected in the thought you give to every post. And I'm not trying to convince you to do anything. You asked for my thoughts and I shared them because I thought they might be useful. If they're not then I'm just sorry I can't provide more to you. I'm not MWD and my track record with marriage is 0 for 1 so nothing I'm very proud of

[Cadet]

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