[HelenaJ]

Quote:
The porn issue has affected me very deeply but he insists that all guys do it. And I know they do so what can I say?


No, not all guys do.

Point taken. But in all honestly, it's probably not something to end a M over because enough guys DO do it that it might be pretty dang hard to find one that doesn't.

So, that's how he deals with what he does that hurt you. But if the table is turned and it's you doing something to hurt him......what happens?

Yeah, lots of punishment happens. He's very narcissistic and has double standards all over the place.

I'll state it this way.......when some men have used porn for many years, they finally get where they cannot perform sex with their W's. In other words, porn is what gets them off, and they can't do it without watching porn. I've also read about how the way some porn addicted H's treat their W in bed......as if she is one of the porn actresses, b/c it desensitizes his emotional connection, loving tenderness, and caring about his W's needs in love making. Do any of these sound familiar?

No, he wouldn't consider himself to be a good guy if he wasn't a good lover and he is. My pleasure always came first. I am not an initiator though so as far as filling my sexual needs....there have been times I've initiated and he's turned me down. I don't know why, maybe he wasn't in the mood or maybe it was something else. But when I say turned me down, I mean cold. There was no "well, you might have to get me in the mood", it was just not gonna happen. I feel that H has always struggled with emotional connection though. Oddly, after the company party incident he became VERY sexual...like to the point where it made me a little uncomfortable. He couldn't keep his hands off of me, it was very strange. Then it just stopped and he was much colder and emotionally distant. I've asked him about that and he tells me that was him giving his heart back to me but he never has told me why it didn't last. I have no idea. He got upset one night because I asked "do you still want to go in the hot tub" and he was really offended because me asking that indicated that I didn't and he'd already told me he'd been looking forward to it all day. So that was the end of that.

You do realize he is jerking off when he watches it, right?

Of course.

Does he have sex with you?

Well he did ha, we don't anymore of course. Things became weird though. There came a point where all he was interested in was pleasing me orally-no actual intercourse and nothing in it for him. He got offended when I asked about it and just said he loved pleasing me. Sometimes he would tell me he was "too far gone" in terms of how much he'd had to drink. Only pleasing me was weird for me because it put a lot of pressure on me...pressure on me to get in the mood sort of on the spot and on my own (no mutual foreplay) and pressure to orgasm. I mean, it wasn't a huge issue but it was definitely something weighing on my mind as I didn't understand the reason for the change. It eventually got to the point where we were so emotionally disconnected that the last time sex was mentioned, it was through a text instead of a physical initiation. He texted me and said "I'm interested?" I just couldn't. I texted him back and said that I felt we were too emotionally disconnected and I just couldn't. He said he didn't feel that way but he understood. It was never mentioned again...once again, my feelings are completely ignored like I'm not even there. Seems like most partners would have come in the bedroom immediately to talk and would say "why do you feel that way, what has made you feel that way???" The fact that he didn't do that just showed me once again how little he cares. This was one of the major reasons I started to completely withdraw from him.

Has he said anything to the kids that implied you had cheated, or made slight remarks throwing off on you that the kids didn't understand what he meant?

After the company party where I spent all that time talking to a coworker, he moved into the guest room and told the older two what had happened and that we were separating. My oldest daughter begged him not to and kept telling him that Mommy's sorry and she just drank too much. Ugh. Breaks my heart typing that.
He backed down from separation but never put his rings back on or moved back into the bedroom. He has been sleeping on the couch for the last 4.5 years. I don't believe they know anything about the OM that happened when they were young, but I could be wrong. He definitely doesn't ever bring it up in front of them, either situation.

[Vanilla]

Helena your last post has told me a lot more about your sitch and is a very important one.

I need to marinade for a while but I will respond.

Be careful not to trigger WH. He is controlling and D with these types is soooooo troublesome.

V

[artista]

It's sick. But the kids don't know it. They don't know how often we go places socially, they are kids, they don't give a crap if their parents have "date night", would never even occur to them right?? They don't know if their parents have sex or not, they'd prefer to think they don't, haha. Right? And like I said up until 7 months ago, we were affectionate, held hands, no one could tell that things weren't perfect, just like any other marriage. No one knows what happens behind closed doors. Just because I'm telling you what happens behind those doors doesn't mean anyone else knows that!

What is happening in our house right now however it is a little more detrimental as there is no longer any affection nor do we talk to one another. We still say things like "show Mommy" or "Did you tell Daddy xyz?". But it is true that at this rate, they will never again experience the Mom and the Dad who dances in the kitchen. We are no longer acting in a way that demonstrates a loving couple. So yes, there are now issues that weren't there before. And I know I need to figure it out, but those answers don't come overnight and thus I am here, trying to work it out and get some support and guidance from other people who have issues in their marriages and are willing to talk about it because that's not something you can get just anywhere. People would rather look perfect than be real. Myself included, because being real is really f$%!g hard. But we all get to a point where we have to accept that they only way out is through and the longer you pretend to be perfect, the longer you stay stuck in the same crappy place.

your daughter had a conversation with you regarding your M... even said, whatever you decide she understands... she "knows how he is..." something like that... they know... your son asked you about your H sleeping on the couch... they know things... they notice... they cope by pretending not to know... who gives a crap about date night? a respectful healthy marriage does not need date nights... your H is gaslighting you... healthy people do not do these things...

the thing is, you sound even less healthy now than you did when you first started this thread... i noticed the same thing with Psychsara... every time she decided to give it one more try, her H wore her down more... she came back weaker and weaker... i saw it happen with Cherry... and i see the same thing with you... i can't help but feel for your children... there are plenty of marriages where the H and W are not living abundantly happy lives, but they make it work... that's not what you have... your H has hostility toward you... he despises you... he is selfish to the point of putting his disgust with you above your family... that has effects... it just does... i get that you cannot see that right now...

at the very least, i hope you will give Vanilla your ear...

[Zues126]

It wasn't her job to make you a good husband. You do see that now right?

I've never thought it was her job to make me a good husband. I did think it was her job to stay married, but I stopped focusing on how she was doing her job a long time ago.

During my marriage I wasn't accountable for all of my behavior. It's true that if she had acted differently I would've responded differently so it was easy to fool myself into thinking she was responsible for how I was acting.

The way to break this cycle is first to have no expectations about what your spouse should provide to you. Then the resentment can ease. Instead of feeling like they are at fault because they deserve to be punished for how they are mistreating you, you can break the standoff. You can focus on making your path a good one, both in the marriage and without. And oftentimes when that happens the other person will be free to make some other choices as well. You can't drop expectations with the expectation that your partner will change, that's contradictory. You really just have to commit to handling the heartache of the disappointment of having a flawed human partner as best you can.

Do I think you spend your entire life trying to find some happiness on your own in M that was supposed to be a union? No, I don't. People don't marry so they can be alone...
I also believe that marriages are conditional. The only unconditional love I have or will ever have is for my children.

Well, looks like our beliefs don't line up. It happens.

My view is people don't marry so they can divorce either. And that marriage makes a spouse family and divorce is no different than putting a child in foster care because they were throwing tantrums.

The tragedy of life is you'll never have the marriage your heart desires. Not because your husband is a bad man, but because we are all flawed humans and can't manifest our best selves in reality. We all have love in our hearts, but it comes out broken so much of the time. This is what the world has given you. Today. It may change in two years, five years. In fact, if you really detach, drop expectations, and become the W you think you could be if only he were a better husband first, then I'm sure it will improve to a point. But it will never be the union the heart desires. Those standards can't be reached. And that is all expectation.

Divorcing doesn't change that problem. You can find other partners, project a lot onto them in the first 2-3 years before reality overpowers fantasy, and pretend you have the love and relationship you've always wanted. It's a pretty hard self hypnosis act because you're dealing with courts and custody and missing your children when they're not around and being negative cash flow and working all the time and exhausted from trying to manage everything on your own, as well as from the loss of knowing that no fantasy will be your husband as you desired him, no other person will be the father of your children, or have grown with you and suffered with you through these years of your life. But it can be done. And certainly you can go on to live a good life. But there will always be a hole in your heart. I'd consider subsequent relationships after a D to be like having more children after your firstborn dies. Of course you keep living, but it will never be 'ok' again. DB and DR books have many examples of this as at the beginning and is the reason MWD has this site.

Thanks for listening. I'm really not writing to you. I'm not going to change your beliefs and I respect your right to live your life. These are just the words that reflect the loss I still live every day of my life. It will have been four years in a few weeks for me. Most days I don't notice it anymore, but it's a constant. And while the pain isn't unmanageable, sometimes I have to touch the wound and ask myself for the umpteenth time "How did anyone think this was the best road forward?" I've answered those questions thousands of times by reading posts of WAS's, posts like yours, and learning about the belief patterns and societal outlooks that lead people into this trap, and so on, and so on, but none of that will ever answer that question. Just this permanently vague confusing spot in your brain that you have to stop messing with because you'll never answer it in a way that makes sense. Because it doesn't. To me it makes no sense.

But such is life. So I post on DB and get it off your chest. Then I breathe in and out. Then I get on with my day. If I'm lucky by noon I won't think about this again for a couple of days. Hey, I get to do whatever you want because I'm single and don't have the kids until tomorrow. All of our marital problems are solved

[HelenaJ]

you sound even less healthy now than you did when you first started this thread

How so? It seems to me that I am still dealing with the same issues, but that I have instituted some 180s and I see that as healthy steps forward. For me it seems monumental to take these positions although no one here has said too much about it. I know my H is controlling and manipulative but I don't have to let him do it. This is a huge change for me. Help me walk this journey the best way I can. And if I get to the point where I leave, then you can say I told ya so.

[HelenaJ]

Hey Zues, I didn't know if you'd respond back or not since it doesn't sound like you post too much. I'm glad you did though because I'd really like your continued input. Coincidentally, I spent last night reading through your last thread. Sounds like you've gotten on with your life quite well although you clearly miss being married. That would be me too.

Well, looks like our beliefs don't line up. It happens.

I don't think that's entirely true because...

You can find other partners, project a lot onto them in the first 2-3 years before reality overpowers fantasy, and pretend you have the love and relationship you've always wanted. It's a pretty hard self hypnosis act because you're dealing with courts and custody and missing your children when they're not around and being negative cash flow and working all the time and exhausted from trying to manage everything on your own, as well as from the loss of knowing that no fantasy will be your husband as you desired him, no other person will be the father of your children, or have grown with you and suffered with you through these years of your life. But it can be done. And certainly you can go on to live a good life. But there will always be a hole in your heart. I'd consider subsequent relationships after a D to be like having more children after your firstborn dies. Of course you keep living, but it will never be 'ok' again.

Because these could be my words, I swear I've said very nearly the exact same thing. I have no doubts that if H and I divorced I would be "fine", that's just who I am. But I would forever miss being married to my children's father and having my family intact. I don't fool myself by thinking there is anything that could replace it. I might be happy someday (and happiness is NOT my driving factor by the way), but it would never be the same as having that same moment with the father of my children. Things would never ever be the same and I would always have a hole in my heart because of it. And whereas some people might thing the analogy of the death of a child is over the top, I don't. I've thought that myself. People think I'm being dramatic and ASSURE me that I'll find happiness again. But I know me. And I know better.

However. My H has checked out of our marriage-he left it, not I. Do you understand that? I didn't know emotional abandonment was a real thing until I knew it was a thing. It's a thing.

It's true that if she had acted differently I would've responded differently so it was easy to fool myself into thinking she was responsible for how I was acting.

And this is a potential flaw with 180s. On the one hand, changing your behavior can absolutely change the behavior of the other person, but it they don't respond well to it then it can actually make the problem worse and once you've done the 180, it can be hard to dial back from.

My H is flawed and I have reacted to those flaws in flawed ways of my own. I could see dropping expectations and one could say that's what he has done. He no longer expects me to be his wife because he's convinced himself that I want something other than him. He's told me to do whatever I want (opposite of controlling right? And a total BS cover up IMHO). Can I drop the expectation of having a husband/wife relationship with my H whom I believe with all of my heart is intentionally withholding it as a punishment? I just don't think I'm that big of a person Zues. However, even if I did separate, I would not file for D. I would simply put a request in the family law court to get custody approved because there is no way H is going to agree to anything. Nothing. So for me, even a separation would be a hope to actually save my M. It would be a last chance wake up call. And if he let me walk away, then I would know at that point that there was nothing I could have done and I just need to keep my eyes on the road ahead.

My view is people don't marry so they can divorce either. And that marriage makes a spouse family and divorce is no different than putting a child in foster care because they were throwing tantrums.

A child is different though-as an adult you have a responsibility to show them how to deal with the world. They are learning, they are innocent and fragile. My H is not a child and he has to take responsibility for his own journey. We have children of our own to teach. If he wants me, I am here. But if he continually says he can't give me his heart again, it's different than a foster child saying he doesn't want me. With a child, it's up to me to show unconditional love because that's my job as a parent. It's not my job as a wife to continue to put up with hurtful behavior because my H wants to punish me as though I AM THE CHILD.

The tragedy of life is you'll never have the marriage your heart desires.

You must be speaking in general because lord knows I'm not asking for a lot here. Just asking for my H to participate with me in the M he also chose. I'm not asking for him to change. For him to drink less. For him to stop watching porn. For him to go to counseling.
For him to do anything except stop shirking the vows he also took. Is expecting a marriage period equivalent to expecting the marriage my heart desires? No, it isn't. And in fact it sounds like him telling me I can't have my "fairy tale marriage".

I *obviously* haven't been a perfect wife or I would not have made the mistakes I did. But they were mistakes. In fact the company party thing wasn't even a mistake, it was a complete accident. I absolutely had no idea I was doing anything wrong or that so much time had passed. On a daily basis, I AM a good wife. I don't nag at my H for stuff, I am fit, I keep my hair and nails done, I dress well, I am laid back and go with the flow, I love his family and they love me and are our best and only friends and are over all the time, I'm a good cook, I keep our house clean, I'm a great Mom, I make really great money that allows us to have the life we live, and although I'm not an initiator of sex too often I made a vow quite some time ago not to turn it down and I am open to anything in the bedroom (aside from a third party), and honestly most of all, I accept HIS faults. He has some pretty big ones in my honest opinion.

I'm not sure if you've ready my specific circumstances, but if you haven't, would you? I would really appreciate your sincere assessment of it and your opinion on what I should do next. Thank you!!

[HelenaJ]

D with these types is soooooo troublesome.

I absolutely 100% know this. Here is the text exchange from when he told me he didn't want to be a couple ever again and I told him I couldn't live as a family and just pretend:

H: I am sacrificing the right to have any say in our marriage. The cost is that you don't have my heart to crush any longer. Just be you. Do what you want.

Me: You've made yourself clear. I cannot beg you anymore. I hope I've made myself clear. I can't live like that. Will start exploring other options, I don't know what else to do. What else to say. It's never going to be enough. I love you. And I'm sorry.

H: Just please don't mess with our kids. The have become the whole reason for our existence. They don't deserve any of this. I must have missed the part where you begged though.

Me: I would never EVER mess with the way our kids feel for you. Did you hear me say I love you?? I will do my very best to make sure I love you throughout it all.

H: I can't put myself above them. I love you too but I feel you are going to go down a dangerous road with kids and single parents.

Me: We are both very strong parents. That's all I can rely on.

H: A broken home is a broken home. Do you have something else lined up?

Me: What?

H: Because I can't even fathom it.

Me: Something else lined up as in SOMEONE else lined up? After I just begged you to try to work it out with me and told you I loved you and my plans for change. I just can't even. I cannot fathom either situation!!!

H: Can you just be a family with us until something better comes along?

Me: What?!

H: I know it is not ideal.

Me: I think I'm going to puke. I am seriously physically ill. I know you are not saying this tome right now. Something better as in SOMEONE BETTER?? OMG how do I still love you.

H: So what is your answer. Get divorced and put the kids through that just because?

Me: I cannot pretend! I am so brokenhearted I can barely move. We have to move on.

H: Try it while your wife spends an entire evening with another man. We don't have to move on because our children are so much bigger than us.

Me: It's also my personal hell. I can't change the past no matter how much I wish I could.

H: Yes PRETEND. They deserve it.

Me: I could say the same thing! Try again-they deserve it.

H: They are our gifts to the world.

Me: I have said that exact same thing. They are indeed.

H: Don't break them please. I will tolerate anything you put down to maintain a whole household.

Me: Are you kidding me? Please stop that. I don't know who or what you think I am. Tolerate anything I put down. JC.

H: Divorce can destroy kids.

Me: Stop.

H: This is where you are coming from right? I am just asking you not to do it. We can deal with our indifferences until you have something else lined up. Don't destroy the kids until you have something else lined up.

Me: I am not lining anything else up. You and the kids are all I ever wanted. I know you don't believe that but it's the truth.

H: But then why would you want a divorce? There has to be something else out there that you are looking for. Can you just hang with us and pretend until you have other options? For the kid's sake.

Me: No! I already told you I want our marriage. I cannot live in a house with a man I want to love but can't!

H: So to solidify our current circumstances you can't live with our arrangement. Divorce is the only option and the kids will have to deal with their emotional scars.

Me: I don't really see it as "our arrangement". It's your arrangement and yes I cannot be a normal person/parent/mother under those circumstances. We can't go back to how things were. I never really knew KNEW you felt this strongly that there was no chance for us. Your behavior indicated it but I wasn't certain. I would have kept trying until I didn't even know who I was anymore. Remember I'm too stupid to get stuff..so unless you say it I just don't know. And you said it.

H: Can you just hold off on the divorce until you have viable options?

Me: I'm not divorcing you, I'm just moving out.

H: That makes no sense. The kids need you.

Me: I cannot handle the permanence of divorce right now. The kids will still have me and they will still have you. In different houses.

H: So we will have kids from a broken home. Awesome. I hope you can live with your selfishness.

Me: Not everyone can create nice neat boxes around their emotions. I can't.

H: You have finally crossed the line with me. You have decided to mess with our kids. I hope you are joking. This is a line that you cannot cross back from. Your evilness is so selfish. I will not forgive you for this ever. Don't mess with my kids. You have been horrible to me as a wife but I will not tolerate you abusing our kids. This is a life changing decision for them. F you.

Me: Do you think I don't know that??? Do you think I haven't cried myself to sleep every single night?? Do you think I haven't looked at their faces and felt like dying bc I don't know how we can do this to them??? You just tell me what the answer is???? Live with a man who hates me and pretend we're a family?? I just don't understand how you can think this is a logical option??

H: If you can do it then you are so below the person I thought you could be. Go ahead and put yourself above them though. They are only our legacy on this earth. But you are more important.

Me: You just tell me what to do. Wait until "something better comes along"?? That's an option to you? We can't go back to the family were, it's too late!!! How do I un-know these things?

H: Glad we had this talk. Can you be any more selfish. You would sacrifice your kids for your own happiness. Stop talking to me. Do what you need to do you selfish person.


So yeah, divorce would be a little bit of a challenge with him. He essentially scared me immobile. And here I am even though I said I wouldn't be.

[Zues126]

Cool Helena. I know you're going through the darkest of times and if my thoughts help in any way I'm happy to share them.

I haven't read all your threads, but my sense of it is that you two are living together but both are defeated. It doesn't sound like there is currently physical abuse or another woman involved with your H. This is a pretty good starting point to work from and while the details may seem monumentally important this tells me most of what I really want to know.

The first step is deescalating the tension a little bit. Right now it seems like every day you two are on the verge of WWIII. Sandi's 37 rules are a good place to start in letting things cool down. Some rules that might help:

32. Do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.

You are taking his comments about being done with the marriage and all of his other words WAY too literally. You are attempting to debate using logic with a person that is in pain beyond their ability to cope. And you're not in such a great spot either, so these text message conversations are absurd because it's just two people in pain lashing at each other. It also goes against:

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patient on your behalf.
21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

My goodness. If you were challenged on trying to come up with a way to violate as many of these rules as possible you'd be hard pressed to find a better way than getting into fights about the relationship!

This is actually good news! Look at it this way - if you were perfect then there would be nothing you could do differently to save your marriage and it would be a lost cause. From where I stand I think this marriage is totally savable and has more potential than you can probably see from right now. I am basing this on his ACTION of not leaving you, which means he still loves you and isn't ready to give up on having you in his life. I don't care what words he is saying. He's still there.

I was in a similar spot in my M. My XW filed D and never looked back. I'm hoping you can find a better path.

I'd recommend reading the 37 rules 2-3 times a day until you have them memorized. Review them before ever sending a text or email or putting yourself in a spot where you'll be in contact with H. Doesn't hurt before coming in contact to or responding to a message to pray for the strength to transcend your pain and let your best self shine through.

There's much more to saving a marriage than this list but this is absolutely step one. Like tying a tourniquet to save someone's life. There may need to be an operation and a blood transplant, but you have to get them to the hospital alive!

Hang in.

[HelenaJ]

I include you in my daily votive.

Thank you Vanilla. Are you Catholic?

You are taking his comments about being done with the marriage and all of his other words WAY too literally. You are attempting to debate using logic with a person that is in pain beyond their ability to cope.

Ok...but it's been 14.5 years since OM indiscretion and 4.5 years since the company party incident. At what point will he acquire the ability to cope? I really don't think pain lasts that long. Resentment, bitterness, and punishment do though.

If you were challenged on trying to come up with a way to violate as many of these rules as possible you'd be hard pressed to find a better way than getting into fights about the relationship!

I agree, this text exchange was about 2 months ago. Since then he's tried a few times to bring me into negative text exchanges and I told him that unless he's serious about us being different than we are now, that I never want to discuss our R with him again. And that is true, all this pointless banter where he tells me how terrible I am and I tell him how sorry I am. I'm done with it.

Sandi's rules are pretty default right now for me, but I do have a problem with being nice to him. I'm not displaying the person he wants to be married to and I'm not sure I should be to be honest. That person is reserved for people I like and who like me. I've never been good at hiding the way I feel about people. If you're always nice and sweet, how will people know when their behavior is not acceptable?

I was in a similar spot in my M. My XW filed D and never looked back. I'm hoping you can find a better path.

Do you know why she left?

I don't care what words he is saying. He's still there.

Do you believe in personality disorders? Do you believe that there are people out there who will do whatever they need to do to ensure that their world remains how they want it? Consider the possibility that his motive for being here isn't as good as you think it is. Yes, he still wants me in his life, I believe that. But I don't think it's because he loves me even though he says he does. Love does not carry on this way for this long in this hurtful of a manner. It can't....or it isn't love. It's something else. I don't know what.

I haven't pushed the boundaries too much. But there have been enough occasions to let me know that this can never be a normal relationship...last summer I wanted to go to a concert, a band my Dad had liked. I was still grieving from his death and I just wanted to go. H would not go with me, gave me a bunch of BS excuses, etc. (now I know it was part of his plan to never go anywhere with me socially again) so I said I would take S17. He sabotaged that by not coming to get S5 and D8 and when I talked to him about it later he said "We did not discuss you taking S17 to the concert". I was like, what is there to discuss? I told you I was planning to take him, I told you we were going, what more is there to discuss? He essentially told me that he cares about his son's heart more than his own and he was not going to let me break his heart by taking him somewhere where I could talk to other guys and put him in a bad spot.

As much as I want someone to tell me my M is savable I just don't think it is. And I do also believe a healthier person would be gone. But because H is all I've ever known, the only R I've ever had, and I have 4 beautiful children with him, I keep hoping that I can just "get him down" to better terms. As in, we'll never be normal because he's not normal. Ok, but how close can we get? It has to be closer than this "never be a couple again" crap. I don't know where my line is. But I know I can't live like that. He has GOT to dial it back some.

[HelenaJ]

And just a thank you to everyone who's taken time out of their day to give me your perspectives. I appreciate it immensely and it's been so helpful to get my thoughts out here because it forces me to articulate feelings and turn them into something more than that. And someday, it will be the documentary for which I'm either glad I stayed or reminds me why I left.