[Zues126]

Helena, I'm new to your sitch but like to read what Sandi and Artista have to say. In this case I disagree with them and probably what 99% of people will tell you.

To save some time, here is a link to my thread in Surviving the big D section. If you want to read my last 2 posts that will help:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...434#Post2793434

It's weird to me how much things have changed. This is a marriage saving forum and the consensus is that your H is a dud and you should leave. I disagree. I think you can go on your own journey and find peace and fulfillment within the marriage you are in. This will change the dynamic and remove much of the tension and may make the marriage feel different. H may even be inspired to make some changes some day.

I believe all marriages go through difficulty that can be construed as 'emotionally abusive', and almost everyone could be labelled an addict whether it is social media or cell phones or video games or porn or alcohol or gambling or being a workaholic or overeating or god only knows what else. If you believe you or your children are in physical danger then YES, get the heck out now. If there's no imminent danger than be a leader and transcend the dysfunction.

I don't know all the details now but this is my general belief. Oh, and I was just as bad of a husband at times during my marriage including the use of porn and a ton of resentment and poor behavior. I am not the same person today. I'm no saint but I've become an awesome father and believe I could've learned to be a good husband as well. I was young and inexperienced and dealing with struggles no one ever prepared me for.

I'm not here to fight others, I accept that the vast majority of the world believes in conditional marriages and in putting yourself first. Up to you which path you want to follow. Just know that at least one person wouldn't think you're a fool for standing by your M.

PS- before posting this I dusted off my copy of Divorce Busting which I haven't opened for a while. I wanted to review whether MWD had any clauses for when D was appropriate. In her section "Is working on my M working?" she mentioned that physical abuse should never be tolerated, then went on to say most situations aren't that severe. I didn't see anything further about building a case for getting a divorce, and in fact her entire works are filled with examples similar to this with letters from people regretting divorce and those that are glad they remained committed. This is her site and while our world is evolving to where even pro-marriage people are increasingly finding arguments for divorce, I wanted to share my thoughts and MWD's as well.

[sandi2]

The porn issue has affected me very deeply but he insists that all guys do it. And I know they do so what can I say?

No, not all guys do.

He acts like he doesn't understand my hurt about it and took it off the table for discussion a long time ago, his words

So, that's how he deals with what he does that hurt you. But if the table is turned and it's you doing something to hurt him......what happens?

Not that long ago, he told me he did take a break from it and had no sex drive at all. I'm not sure why he told me that, if he felt like I would then be grateful for it?? But if that's what he was hoping, it did the opposite because I was like what?! So I'm not enough to keep your sex drive going? wth?

I am certainly no expert on the subject, but I have read that^^^^^^^^ it is a side effect of long term porn use. I'll state it this way.......when some men have used porn for many years, they finally get where they cannot perform sex with their W's. In other words, porn is what gets them off, and they can't do it without watching porn. I've also read about how the way some porn addicted H's treat their W in bed......as if she is one of the porn actresses, b/c it desensitizes his emotional connection, loving tenderness, and caring about his W's needs in love making. Do any of these sound familiar?

One time I actually walked in on him masturbating in the living room to porn...I was devastated, totally. I mentioned that at one point, that it felt like he had cheated on me..

Well, sure you felt as if he had cheated on you. Just b/c he's a guy, does not make porn use acceptable, as if it's a stand-in for the W. You do realize he is jerking off when he watches it, right? And those porn images are stored in his memory, so he can mentally pull them up whenever he wants.

I know he didn't but it FELT like that. All he said was, imagine that because meanwhile you really WERE cheating on me. There's just no point in trying to talk to him.

This is why I say things are very unhealthy, b/c he is trying to write the definition of cheating when it applies to you, but a different set.....or no set at all, when it applies to him. Many, many W's feel cheated due to porn. Some guys can break the addiction, but we had a poster once who wrote about how difficult it was. If your H doesn't want to stop, and won't seek counseling, or whatever, to help him......then I don't know what to tell you. Even a few cases I remember had porn issues and the H broke the use of it.......it did not save that current M. Those men went on to another M, but the W they had while using porn.......did not stay.. Am I telling you to get a divorce? No, I am telling you to find your strength, self value, and happiness. Don't continue being this sad & lonely woman you are today.

He wants to stay where he is. Which I just can't understand because he says he still loves me, would look for someone just like me, he has given me random compliments even since he's declared that we'll never be a couple again....he just insists that he can't ever trust me with his heart again

Does he have sex with you?

Is he taking the high road? He could be right?

In the Book I read, forgiveness is taking the high road........so, no, I don't think he is taking the high road.

Maybe he's been so hurt by me that he truly just doesn't want to ever try again. But he's staying in this M because our kids don't deserve a broken home. I mean, that's either really f#%^ed up or really admirable. I truly can't decide.

A man's ego is the most fragile thing on earth. His ego was hurt, and based on your posts, he believes in a double standard for the two of you. Yes, he sounds messed up, but that's JMHO.

Has he said anything to the kids that implied you had cheated, or made slight remarks throwing off on you that the kids didn't understand what he meant?

[artista]

as far as i know, i have never advised anybody to file for D... i believe people come here because they want to save their Ms... and by that, i mean they want more than simply existing in a M... they want a thriving, healthy M... if you know my story, you know that my H and i were separated for quite awhile... we went our separate ways... in that time, we were both able to work on ourselves... heal ourselves--with no expectation of coming together...

i do not believe Helena will achieve a healthy, loving M while living with her H, who has no reason to change while she puts up with him... i think she has a greater chance to heal, thrive, and possibly see changes in her H if she were to remove herself from his poison... and yes--i think his current attitude is poisonous to her and their family... her children are affected... i've seen the results in my own brother's adult children... their mother poisoned them for years as they lived "the happy, whole family."

--artista

p.s.--i would not be surprised if at some point, Helena's H ups and leaves her... he could do it... he is not a man of character...

--a

[Vanilla]

Abuse comes in all sorts of ways and it is my firm belief that although it is very difficult you release yourself from abuse.

There is no 'degree' or 'not too bad' or 'others have it worse' with abuse. It is also my view that DB is ineffective in abuse and makes abuse much much worse.

This type of abuse is systemic and usually derives from a disordered personality, have you explored with an IC why you accept this level of abuse?

I am not anti porn particularly, as a little harmless spice it's great fun, but at your WH level it has reached addiction plus he doesn't want to take action on it. That's a serious issue.

None of this is your fault, none of it, it's squarely on him.

As for being a lost cause, your not. You are here and listening to us. I do hope that something that is said to you will reach you and start the avalanche of change you need.

I would say read my threadS but there are so many of them. The early threads 4 to 9 will show you the abuse I suffered and how hard it was to cope with. I tell you this because recovery from abuse is a long hard road. A struggle. I meet with a group of women all of whom have been abused, some very severely and it is such a difficult journey.

You want the guy you M back and it's never happening. Once WH has wilfully permanently crossed the Rubicon there is no coming back to health. WH likes his addiction, loves it , and rationalised it as need. All addicts need their addiction.

I can read your threads and posts, and I can be triggered by it. As long as you keep posting then I will keep reading.

Unlike other posters I will be very clear, please be safe, get help from a domestic abuse group IRL, IC to explore the roots of your tolerance. Determine if you are codependent.

Kick his abusive ass to the curb, be free of him and his abuse.

Be safe.

V

[Vanilla]

Does that mean I am saying do not DB in an abuse sitch.

No, I am completely for DB for you Helena. For you but not for the old M which is dead and gone.

I state clearly DB saved my life, the level of abuse I suffered would have eventually killed me. My health was so much on the slide. For me it isn't M at all costs, some sitches are so abusive and so unhealthy that theyou should stop.

Your WH may also discard you and begin seriously running the sweet cycle. And that is very tough too.

I am here to listen, my concern is you not your M. Whatever your decision on WH of course I will support it. You have every right to use DB to repair your R or build a new M. It's your sitch and your decision. DB is for you to use to benefit you.

I include you in my daily votive.

Stay safe and extreme self care whilst you are going through this.

V

[HelenaJ]

you and your H are damaging your children... BOTH of you are hurting them... they will not escape this unharmed... you are retarding their abilities to have future healthy relationships with potential spouses.

My H and I had a very "normal" relationship on the surface until about 7 months ago. I have said it before and I will say it again-my kids are HAPPY. I am not sacrificing their well being or this decision would be so much easier. We are both fabulous parents. Our kids are our world and we support everything they do and we are very involved in ensuring that they have a very full life. The older two are straight A students, are very accomplished in sports to the point of potential Division 1 scholarships, they are both very very grounded and moral (no sex, drinking, smoking, questionable Instagram posts, none of that). My oldest son writes music, plays the violin, taught himself piano, writes historical fiction, loves strategic games, is a great artist, etc. My oldest daughter is very self assured, very mature and they both take their relationships very seriously whether they are friendships or girlfriends/boyfriends. My son is very devoted and sweet with his girlfriend, he's been dating her for a year and a half. My daughter has excellent judgment from the clothes she chooses to wear to present herself to how she interprets and reacts to the world and she makes way better decisions than I ever did in terms of how she expects to be treated, ha. I talked mostly about my older two here simply because they have more of an established personality than my 5 and 8 year olds obviously.

Am I saying that they aren't being affected AT ALL by me staying? No, of course not. Are you saying that they wouldn't be affected AT ALL by me leaving? I highly doubt that you are. It's a very, very delicate situation and they will be impacted no matter which way I go. Look, my situation [censored]. I know it. My H has some serious issues that are impacting me very detrimentally and I know that also. But I also know that leaving and potentially divorcing is not going to magically make my life wonderful and it certainly isn't going to magically make my kids lives wonderful. This weighs on my mind every day.

[HelenaJ]

your are both fooling yourselves if you think your children are not living in a broken home.

I agree with you here. Yet somehow I still take responsibility for it. If I could just pretend like H has suggested, they would never know. The problem is that since H has told me these things, I cannot pretend. I realize I shouldn't HAVE TO. But if I want to stay and if I want my home to be in tact, then I have to get to a point where I can do that. Because my home as it is now, is certainly broken.

that you think it might be admirable shows just how sick you are... you are not healthy, your H is not healthy... pray tell how you think you can give your children a whole, healthy home? please...

A lot of people choose to stay together for their children and they put that above their own personal happiness. The problem I have here is that neither H or I were unhappy. He is punishing me and choosing to withhold healthy aspects of a R and passing it off as consequences for what I have done. It's sick. But the kids don't know it. They don't know how often we go places socially, they are kids, they don't give a crap if their parents have "date night", would never even occur to them right?? They don't know if their parents have sex or not, they'd prefer to think they don't, haha. Right? And like I said up until 7 months ago, we were affectionate, held hands, no one could tell that things weren't perfect, just like any other marriage. No one knows what happens behind closed doors. Just because I'm telling you what happens behind those doors doesn't mean anyone else knows that!

What is happening in our house right now however it is a little more detrimental as there is no longer any affection nor do we talk to one another. We still say things like "show Mommy" or "Did you tell Daddy xyz?". But it is true that at this rate, they will never again experience the Mom and the Dad who dances in the kitchen. We are no longer acting in a way that demonstrates a loving couple. So yes, there are now issues that weren't there before. And I know I need to figure it out, but those answers don't come overnight and thus I am here, trying to work it out and get some support and guidance from other people who have issues in their marriages and are willing to talk about it because that's not something you can get just anywhere. People would rather look perfect than be real. Myself included, because being real is really f$%!g hard. But we all get to a point where we have to accept that they only way out is through and the longer you pretend to be perfect, the longer you stay stuck in the same crappy place.

[HelenaJ]

Hi Zues, I'll take a look at your thread soon, thanks for posting.

I think you can go on your own journey and find peace and fulfillment within the marriage you are in. This will change the dynamic and remove much of the tension and may make the marriage feel different. H may even be inspired to make some changes some day.

I appreciate having both sides....I am pro marriage and I completely agree that waaaay too many people put their own agendas and happiness above those of their kids. But I am not pro marriage at all costs and any marriage requires two people. You can make temporary changes and adjustments and attempt to find some happiness but how long that continues without the other person is questionable and depends on a unique set of circumstances in every situation. Do I think you spend your entire life trying to find some happiness on your own in M that was supposed to be a union? No, I don't. People don't marry so they can be alone. If my H wants to make changes someday, good for him. Maybe I will be here for it and maybe I won't.

I believe all marriages go through difficulty that can be construed as 'emotionally abusive', and almost everyone could be labelled an addict whether it is social media or cell phones or video games or porn or alcohol or gambling or being a workaholic or overeating or god only knows what else.

I'm hesitant to use labels as well because it seems so pervasive like you're saying that's how things are all the time. Sort of like we say don't say someone "is" something, say they are "being" something. If you find that someone is "being" these things at a higher frequency than you are personally comfortable with then, that's what matters.

Oh, and I was just as bad of a husband at times during my marriage including the use of porn and a ton of resentment and poor behavior. I am not the same person today. I'm no saint but I've become an awesome father and believe I could've learned to be a good husband as well. I was young and inexperienced and dealing with struggles no one ever prepared me for.

I'm glad you've changed. I'm sorry your wife is evidently not here to see it. It wasn't her job to make you a good husband. You do see that now right?

I accept that the vast majority of the world believes in conditional marriages and in putting yourself first. Up to you which path you want to follow. Just know that at least one person wouldn't think you're a fool for standing by your M.

I also believe that marriages are conditional. The only unconditional love I have or will ever have is for my children. Thank you for saying you wouldn't think I was a fool for staying, but I can't see myself staying longer than next summer if things don't change. I want my marriage to work more than anything. However, I can't wish things true.

[HelenaJ]

i do not believe Helena will achieve a healthy, loving M while living with her H, who has no reason to change while she puts up with him... i think she has a greater chance to heal, thrive, and possibly see changes in her H if she were to remove herself

There are two possibilities in my situation. 1) My husband is being genuine when he says he never wants to be a couple again and only wants to be a family for the kids sake. 2) My husband is totally BSing me when he says that and the reasons he could be BSing me are plentiful and none of them are healthy.

In the first scenario, I agree with you, I don't think H would have any reason to change as long as I am here because by being here I am giving him what he said he wants. In the second scenario, perhaps once he realizes his efforts to BS me are totally not working, he will change his methods. The second scenario could be rectified without leaving if I handle it correctly. This is the scenario I am banking on and it is the one my actions are geared toward. If I'm wrong and the first scenario is genuinely what he wants, then on one hand I'm wasting my time here. On the other hand, who can say that getting emotionally healthier and spending EVERY day with their kids instead of every other week is really wasting their time?

When many people read the two scenarios I laid out above, they might think they'd be packing their bags either way. I can see that because in the first scenario, nothing's gonna change without leaving. In the second scenario, things might change, but H is still going to be the same warped person and these issues will likely just come up again later in some other way. But, if I make the changes I need to make in terms of NOT letting myself be controlled, then perhaps he will stop following a fruitless path.

I don't know.

[HelenaJ]

This type of abuse is systemic and usually derives from a disordered personality, have you explored with an IC why you accept this level of abuse?

I think simply because I was so young when we got together. My parents did not have a great marriage and were partyers, drank too much, fought too much, my Dad scared the crap out of me and was physically violent toward my Mom although most of the physical violence occurred before I was born...my siblings had to see most of that. I was also on the wrong path when I met H, into drugs and major drinking and sleeping around. I was happy maybe for the first time ever when I met my H and all his controlling ways felt like love and in all honesty took me off the path of major self destruction.

I do hope that something that is said to you will reach you and start the avalanche of change you need.

In my eyes, I've made some pretty significant changes. So maybe they aren't the types of changes you mean or maybe you think they are going to be ineffective in the long run? I see my changes as follows: 1) accepting what H has said in terms of how he says our M will be. I am no longer trying to change his mind. 2) Telling him to stop texting me unless he is serious about things being different between us than they are. I used to accept any attention from him even if it was negative. Not anymore. 3) I gave him my rings back. This was meant to tell him that the situation as he's defined it is very serious and has consequences of its own.

You want the guy you M back and it's never happening.

Unfortunately My H has always been the way he is. I'd love to say he was different when we met but he wasn't. He has personality issues. There are tons of examples throughout the years. So, even worse, I want my H to be the guy he never was. Ha. Pretty likely right?