I am still relatively convinced this is a premature MLC as she obsessed about getting older and could not handle being in her 30s.
Warning I don't believe in MLC! There is entitled behaviour with waywardness and party lifestyle or there isn't. There is also depression but this doesn't sound like that.
Interesting. Any reason you Don not believe in it? I saw a shift in behavior and an obsession with feeling young again. It is not exactly a party lifesyle. She drinks almost not at all and has completely change her diet to raw foods. There is a social element but it is mainly athletic endeavors. She definitely started viewing me and the M as impediments to the independent young lifestyle.
She has definitely reverted to some teenage behaviors in terms of working out and being obsessed with her social life.
In which case every single, divorced or separated person I know is a teenager. Working out is becoming a better version of self and if one has walked from an M then of course establishing a social life is priority, it's called GAL.
She definitely chafed at my neediness and the little control I exerted over her.
No one, no one has the right to control another. That can only be done against another's free will. This is likely the reason she wants out. Frankly learn from it, it's abusive and in the longer term won't work.
The back story is that she was very seriously depressed for about 3 years and I fell into a codependent caretaker role. My fault, I know. Everything in my life became about taking care of her and I lost my sense of self. I recognize what it was and the negative impact it had on the R. However, I read your comments as saying it was that abuse that drove her away. I do not think that is fair. She has her own issues and chose to check out rather than work both individually and together on the issues we both had.
Her rebellion was limited to things like staying out on Saturday afternoons w. Friends and not making back in time for our unspoken but traditional Saturday night dinner out. She also did on 4-5 ocasions come home at 2 or 3 am from a party at friends (I know it was not an A).
This is the start of wayward behaviour I think. The odd night out isn't but late mornings arrivals usually are. It depends where. I used to visit bestie and stay out all night, but it was me bestie and a bottle of Prosecco. I stayed over.
When I called her out on this behavior she was a little defensive but recognized that it was not cool to me.
This isn't good, you aren't her dad. Instead set your reasonable boundary and your consequences.
What would a consequence look like? I was not even considering the possibility of ending the R at that point.
We even joked about how little possessiveness or control I tried to exert over her, it was one of the the things that attracted her to me.
This isn't cool at all. To even try iS damaging.
I do think my growing neediness dye to depression and abandonment anxiety put a big burden on her.
Depression is a toughie, this is for you to get medical help and IC. What are you doing about this?
Yeah. I have been working with an ICE for a month now. I got med but have decided to hold off. This was tied to a specific work incident and it sent me spiralling. The BD seems to have help snap me out of it.
And when we M in sickness and health! If it's not a commitment she wanted then she wouldn't M you.[/color]
What do you mean by this? One of the things that really hurt is that I stood by her for 3 years of tears and some very dark thoughts but 8 months of my own depression was enough for her to bail.
Her heart never fully hardened to me. She was always conflicted between her love and these new desires. In a way I think she began to think of me like her father, who she is very close to, but whom she rebelled against as a teen.
There is so much poor thinking in this. Generalising, mind reading, black thinking and probably misinterpreting. And by behaving in the ways you have above then I would expect her to view you as her dad! Not sexy....
agreed. It was not sexy at all and even as it was happening I hated myself for doing it.
V, I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
You have my unvarnished thoughts. I may suggest you want to look at thinking skills and errors in thought processes. Consider also judgement as a thinking fault too. These are soft skills that you can acquire to identify faulty controlling thinking. And awareness of it is part of the key. You might think of CBT too and the tools involved. There is a marvellous free website get.GG which is a charity and packed full of free stuff.
I will definitely check out the site. I think a lot of my faulty thinking was anxiety driven and based on my codependency. I needed her so much and was blind to how oppressive it could get.
Regardless, I am going to continue on the path of DB, GAL, 180s, and NC. She is on her journey and I am on mine. I feel like I am already a 100 percent better person than I was in the months before BD.
That's excellent news. What are your current goals?
Current goals. Well I dropped 38 lbs which is probably about10 too much so I would like to gain back a little but as muscle. I am leaving on a 8 week road trip across the country. I want to reconnect with old friends and family. I am reading as much as I can and trying to employ self-compassion skills to stop beating myself up. I have also been biking 190 miles per week and would like to keep that at at least 140 during my trip. I am also going to listen to Italian podcasts to work on my italian.
This snapped me out of the stupor of depression and lighted me a new path. Day by day I am growing stronger, more mindful, more in control of my emotions, more assertive.
I love this very much. How are you getting on with boundary setting?
working on it. I do not have many opportunities with the W since we are separated. One day she texted that she would call me when she got back rather than at the agreed on time and when she texted me to say she could finally talk I told her that I was busy and we would talk the next day at nine. I also have a work situation leftover from last year and I am facing it head on. However, if my boss does not stand up for me my only other option might be to leave which is very awkward given the separation and my impending trip.
I like the new me a helluva lot better than the old version. And ultimately my opinion is what matters most.
Absolutely it is.
Once again, thanks for your unvarnished opinion. Some of it hurts but that is good.
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
I am still relatively convinced this is a premature MLC as she obsessed about getting older and could not handle being in her 30s.
Warning I don't believe in MLC! There is entitled behaviour with waywardness and party lifestyle or there isn't. There is also depression but this doesn't sound like that.
Interesting. Any reason you Don not believe in it? I saw a shift in behavior and an obsession with feeling young again. It is not exactly a party lifesyle. She drinks almost not at all and has completely change her diet to raw foods. There is a social element but it is mainly athletic endeavors. She definitely started viewing me and the M as impediments to the independent young lifestyle.
OK, then it sounds like she decided to take herself in hand, to fight the aging which she doesn't like. Being healthy and fit, have to say I have done this too from time to time. It might have helped with her depression too.
MLC isn't in the DSM as a disorder, better brains than mine have said it's not a syndrome or disorder. It's slightly an old fashioned concept too although I know that many do believe it exists and there is a whole part of the board dedicated to it. Wonderful folk who I believe are dealing with spouses with systemic disorders that they are calling MLC. That stuff is real crazy land if you read the sitches much is nuts and bonkers, I don't read crazy loco in W.
She has definitely reverted to some teenage behaviors in terms of working out and being obsessed with her social life.
In which case every single, divorced or separated person I know is a teenager. Working out is becoming a better version of self and if one has walked from an M then of course establishing a social life is priority, it's called GAL.
Addition: plus if you behaved like a dad then it's a logical sulk of teenage behaviour to bounce back with exuberance.
She definitely chafed at my neediness and the little control I exerted over her.
No one, no one has the right to control another. That can only be done against another's free will. This is likely the reason she wants out. Frankly learn from it, it's abusive and in the longer term won't work.
The back story is that she was very seriously depressed for about 3 years and I fell into a codependent caretaker role. My fault, I know. Everything in my life became about taking care of her and I lost my sense of self. I recognize what it was and the negative impact it had on the R. However, I read your comments as saying it was that abuse that drove her away. I do not think that is fair. She has her own issues and chose to check out rather than work both individually and together on the issues we both had.
That's not quite the interpretation, it's the perception of control. She was depressed and taking action on it. An R with two codependents isn't toxic just dysfunctional. And both can resolve it and go on to have a healthy R. Takes work. Unsure about your codependency trait though, I would question if it's personality based or reactive (temporary).
This means it can be a pattern which isn't a great dynamic when circumstances change. Codependents can become passive masters, a term that I know too well. You may try reading Al Turtle on boundaries, he has a wonderful set of essays on this. And writes for teenagers in terms of forts and villagers etc. AL Turtle is really his name, he is a clinical psychologist dealing with depression and other issues, he isn't active any longer and has no public practice.
Another resource on codependency is Ross Rosenberg who trains other psychologists so he is an acaedemic.
I am not codependent and that was part of the issue in my M, the G being a compulsive gambler needed a codependent to be in an R with. Consequences sent him into a spiral of abuse. With another co-dependent then consequences and boundaries are great, especially as it sets the responsibility for the behaviour squarely on the one behaving unacceptably.
Sometimes compromise is needed, as in 'I have my nights out with my girlfriends and that won't be more than once a month but could be more at Xmas or if a wedding is in the offing. I will be back by midnight or it would be great if you could pick me up, I prefer to be back home?' Or 'I have time with my family on my own, my dad needs one on one time even if you don't like it'
Her rebellion was limited to things like staying out on Saturday afternoons w. Friends and not making back in time for our unspoken but traditional Saturday night dinner out. She also did on 4-5 ocasions come home at 2 or 3 am from a party at friends (I know it was not an A).
This is the start of wayward behaviour I think. The odd night out isn't but late mornings arrivals usually are. It depends where. I used to visit bestie and stay out all night, but it was me bestie and a bottle of Prosecco. I stayed over.
Addition: then the Saturday date should be spoken about and perhaps adjusted to Friday on occasion. And not the same every Week! Perhaps a night away or different things. Not sure what the Saturday thing was but making something of it would help.
When I called her out on this behavior she was a little defensive but recognized that it was not cool to me.
This isn't good, you aren't her dad. Instead set your reasonable boundary and your consequences.
What would a consequence look like? I was not even considering the possibility of ending the R at that point.
I think you could work on understanding boundaries and consequences aka Al Turtle. Consequences are actions you take for you. Ending the R is extreme. It's like grounding a child for life after they miss a curfew by 10 mins.
And it also depends how the behaviour affected you and if the other is going to girlfriends or a bar, 5 times in a year or in a fortnight. Sometimes it's because they aren't going out formally dating with their H. It's good to have social time apart from your spouse. I went on dance weekenders with my girlfriends, no waywardism anywhere in sight for any of us. But it was twice a year, pre-booked and if WH wanted to come along he could.
When WH started getting drunk and going out having a 'sesh' 3 or 4 times a week then I realised I had left it too late to set boundaries. Consequences are stated in advance and enforced in arrears. Can be as tiny as if you are drunk when you get in sleep on the sofa. And if it affects family life the following day then expecting them to meet their obligations like say church. If it's a family night they miss out on family events. Oh and you and W did go out on formal date nights together didn't you?
Even stating that the behaviour is unacceptable to you is a consequence. Be reasonable though, boundaries are not controls.
We even joked about how little possessiveness or control I tried to exert over her, it was one of the the things that attracted her to me.
This isn't cool at all. To even try is damaging.
I do think my growing neediness dye to depression and abandonment anxiety put a big burden on her.
Depression is a toughie, this is for you to get medical help and IC. What are you doing about this?
Yeah. I have been working with an ICE for a month now. I got med but have decided to hold off. This was tied to a specific work incident and it sent me spiralling. The BD seems to have help snap me out of it.
And when we M in sickness and health! If it's not a commitment she wanted then she wouldn't M you.[/color]
What do you mean by this? One of the things that really hurt is that I stood by her for 3 years of tears and some very dark thoughts but 8 months of my own depression was enough for her to bail.
Yes. That is rough. Depression is very tough and I don't understand enough to know the dynamic of two depressed people in an R. There are several types of depression and I think it depends on that but I am unsure. I am a bundle of anxiety and know more about that and cPTSD (trauma). Maybe others with more valid experience can help you with this dynamic. Sounds like your depression was reactive or possibly anxiety (see later).
But M is in sickness and health and when we M we accept this. It is a given, bailing is unacceptable in most circumstances, but inevitable if it is needed to save the self.
Her heart never fully hardened to me. She was always conflicted between her love and these new desires. In a way I think she began to think of me like her father, who she is very close to, but whom she rebelled against as a teen.
There is so much poor thinking in this. Generalising, mind reading, black thinking and probably misinterpreting. And by behaving in the ways you have above then I would expect her to view you as her dad! Not sexy....
agreed. It was not sexy at all and even as it was happening I hated myself for doing it.
V, I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
You have my unvarnished thoughts. I may suggest you want to look at thinking skills and errors in thought processes. Consider also judgement as a thinking fault too. These are soft skills that you can acquire to identify faulty controlling thinking. And awareness of it is part of the key. You might think of CBT too and the tools involved. There is a marvellous free website get.GG which is a charity and packed full of free stuff.
I will definitely check out the site. I think a lot of my faulty thinking was anxiety driven and based on my codependency. I needed her so much and was blind to how oppressive it could get.
Anxiety is not depression. It is almost the opposite over reactive to events, the hormonal system involved is very different, cortisol and adrenalin. Depression appears to be a serotonin issue. They have different causes and results. I am wondering if in your 9 months you were anxious not depressed. I am even more coming to this conclusion, mens for depression may be counter indicated in anxiety. And abandonment is usually a FOO issue. Lots to explore in this.
Regardless, I am going to continue on the path of DB, GAL, 180s, and NC. She is on her journey and I am on mine. I feel like I am already a 100 percent better person than I was in the months before BD.
That's excellent news. What are your current goals?
Addition: consider if NC is appropriate. Your W isn't wayward so she may see NC as punishment. If she hasn't been wayward. NC is generally to protect against being involved in crazy loco. With walkaways then generally it's friendly neighbour, door open home with porch light and lively music, and smooth weeded path. Not gate shut locked and barred, lights off, dark bushes and beware of the dog signs.
It's a little far out if you want to new R. See later on black and white. It's also seen as controlling and passive aggressive. Fair enough if you want to really protect you but I still don't read crazy loco.
Current goals. Well I dropped 38 lbs which is probably about10 too much so I would like to gain back a little but as muscle. I am leaving on a 8 week road trip across the country. I want to reconnect with old friends and family. I am reading as much as I can and trying to employ self-compassion skills to stop beating myself up. I have also been biking 190 miles per week and would like to keep that at at least 140 during my trip. I am also going to listen to Italian podcasts to work on my italian.
Do you have this as a formal written set of goals?
Be careful with substitute activities without goals, going cycling with no purpose for instance. Perhaps a competition or challenge? A cycle event or joining a club?
A trip is a great idea, it is called a pattern interrupt. Can I suggest an FB (or insta) page on your trip to mark the Event? It will keep this fresh in your mind and keep you in contact with peeps back home. Gets you encouragement too.
Can I suggest adding learning goal for practising CBT techniques? My first instinct I have to say was anxiety was involved (which CBT is amazing for) and you stating that BD shot you out of it makes me suspect anxiety not depression. Anxiety is manageable whereas depression often requires clinical intervention. We do more damage in reactions and behaviours in anxiety, depression is less easily resolved with CBT although it can help in setting lifestyles.
This snapped me out of the stupor of depression and lighted me a new path. Day by day I am growing stronger, more mindful, more in control of my emotions, more assertive.
I love this very much. How are you getting on with boundary setting?
working on it. I do not have many opportunities with the W since we are separated. One day she texted that she would call me when she got back rather than at the agreed on time and when she texted me to say she could finally talk I told her that I was busy and we would talk the next day at nine. I also have a work situation leftover from last year and I am facing it head on. However, if my boss does not stand up for me my only other option might be to leave which is very awkward given the separation and my impending trip.
I like the new me a helluva lot better than the old version. And ultimately my opinion is what matters most.
Absolutely it is.
Addition: Be careful of absolutes, if my boss doesn't do X then I have to leave. If W doesn't stop this then I leave. Consider a life or career coach to talk you through your work options. In life we come across weak bosses and subordinates there could be much to learn in staying and planning your career change be it up, down, sideways or moving on. Discuss skill changes.
I sense black and white thinking, but don't yet know enough.
Once again, thanks for your unvarnished opinion. Some of it hurts but that is good.
-------------------------
The one thing that helped me was others giving their views, some of which were very hard to take in and I resisted. Others I considered carefully but dismissed.
These are views and suggestions.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Regarding anxiety versus depression I am not sure. I am still anxious now but the fog has lifted. I felt completely without purpose or drive for a while there. I was wallowing in some heavy self pity as well.
I think the codependency was in large part situational although I have caretaker tendencies as an educator.
I will look into the CB.
Do you still think she is WAW? She definitely is not crazy,but I think she is still focused ver much on herself. When I say NC I mean that I am not initiating contact in order to break the pursuit/distance dynamic that I felt very strongly. She told me that she needed time and space. At first that meant we would communicate via text every couple of days but since I started DBing o have not initiated except for once to set up the call about logistics. I am afraid that any contact I initiate might be seen as pursuit. Basically I do not trust my instincts as this whole process runs counter to what my body is screaming for me to do. NC has certainly helped me detach and grow stronger. But I am open to other paths that can grow the R. How do you do that without being perceived as pursuing?
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
One of my goals before my trip was to complete a V6 bouldering route which would be a huge step up for me. Yesterday I finally did it and it was an amazing feeling. That is the kind of thing I would love to share with W since she loves climbing too. Is that the sort of positive contact that would be ok?
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
Your comments while greatly appreciated have thrown me into a morass of questioning everything. Up until now I was feeling confident in my path, the actions that I was taking, but now I do not know. I have read so many threads on here, and you are right that the madness and craziness and anger elsewhere I do not see in my situation.
Part of the reason that I thought MLC was because my W told me at one point post-BD that she "was not herself". She also told me that this was not about me, but about her. She took on all the guilt for the breakup and never tried to put any on me. (I definitely took on my own share for sure!) But what you are telling me seems to a) shift more (not all) of the blame onto my shoulders and b) upsets my thoughts that this was a temporary phase that she would eventually snap out of. By considering this temporary madness, I could more readily believe the axiom not to believe anything she says and only 50% of what she does. However, if it isn't that, then the most likely explanation to me seem like she really is just done with R. All of her actions indicate that. I have backed off pursuit entirely and there has been no change in her behavior or attitude towards me.
It makes me wonder if I should have handled the anguished email she sent me a few weeks ago in a different manner. Not responding to that for 5 days and then simply validating and moving on was brutally hard for me. If it was really a temperature check, what does it mean that my lack of response did not elicit any reaction.
Also, just for more context currently my W is living at home surrounded by all the memories of our life together, all of our pictures together, our dog, her garden. But when I get back from the trip she will move out and into an apartment. She made it clear the last time we met that she would not be staying in the house when I came back although that had been an option. I was thinking that perhaps having to leave all of that behind might help her realize what she was throwing away. But I also wondered if being surrounded by all the memories of us and the R was holding her back and continuing to oppress her. Now I do not know.
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
Regarding anxiety versus depression I am not sure. I am still anxious now but the fog has lifted. I felt completely without purpose or drive for a while there. I was wallowing in some heavy self pity as well.
That's normal I Think! Join the LBS Club.
I think the codependency was in large part situational although I have caretaker tendencies as an educator.
chicken and egg really. Are you attracted to that work because of your tendencies? Or has this brought it out? Just something to ponder really.
I will look into the CB.
Do you still think she is WAW?
Yes
She definitely is not crazy,but I think she is still focused ver much on herself.
Being self centred or even selfish isn't MLC or wayward. It's being selfish and self centred. Maybe this is what is needed for her to resolve her issues.
When I say NC I mean that I am not initiating contact in order to break the pursuit/distance dynamic that I felt very strongly.
That is not NC but RC (reduced contact). You can use the pursuit dynamic to advantage.
She told me that she needed time and space.
I believe her.
At first that meant we would communicate via text every couple of days but since I started DBing o have not initiated except for once to set up the call about logistics.
if this is working carry on. If not why not?
I am afraid that any contact I initiate might be seen as pursuit. Basically I do not trust my instincts as this whole process runs counter to what my body is screaming for me to do.
I know, it does but it really helps.
NC has certainly helped me detach and grow stronger.
But I am open to other paths that can grow the R. How do you do that without being perceived as pursuing?
At this stage your R is non existent. You have a potential R as a friendly neighbour. Again with a walkaway the picnic at the lighthouse is excellent.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
One of my goals before my trip was to complete a V6 bouldering route which would be a huge step up for me. Yesterday I finally did it and it was an amazing feeling. That is the kind of thing I would love to share with W since she loves climbing too. Is that the sort of positive contact that would be ok?
if it crops up. I would also say are you on FB? This is the shift that shows itself well on FB. And she will be looking at you FB. She is a walkaway.
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Benito had a WAW. His old threads were archived because there was a strong possibility that his W was going to find them.
However, there is another thread kicking around. I am copying it here. Note that even though he had a WAW, he went NC/dark and GAL'd. And then when opportunities came up to connect with her, he took them up but his attitude and actions were totally of someone who had detached, dropped the rope, and moved on. I believe that his success was in fact based on that, and also that his W realized the magnitude of the loss when she saw what she was giving up. He really took the time and changed himself and made long lasting improvements.
Check it out. His sitch is the perfect distinction between a WAW and WW. Btw, I am also not too sold on the MLC angle.
