[HelenaJ]

After giving it more though as to how I would define success, I guess I have to define it both ways don't I? So, to stay in this M, success would look like an H who wants to try...who admits he's not perfect and wants to try. I don't even care what that looks like, those are the only two criteria. To exit this M, success would look like me feeling confident that I did everything I could. Waited as long as I could, tried as hard as I could.
Trying as hard as I can is looking a little different these days. My 180 is accepting his pronouncement of never giving me his heart again and trying to live my own life without apologizing, without questioning, without pleading...in fact without any R talk at all. It's hard sometimes for me to even see that I'm trying....because on the surface it looks like I've told him to go to hell. I mean I pretty much have right? I wonder sometimes how I might soften just a little. I refrain from doing so because I feel like for me to talk to him in any way outside the kids, for me to acknowledge him and include him in my life in any way is to give in to his request that we continue to live as a family just not as a couple. I have already told him NO, that is not happening. I am not going to live some weird, half, and disingenuous life. How do I explain to people that I only have half a husband? Like, we don't go anywhere socially together because we're not *really* husband and wife? NO. Not doing that. So I struggle with how to conduct myself so as to still be a kind and decent human being but yet hold strong to my convictions in that type of M will not work for me.
Right now, I do not even acknowledge him unless he speaks to me and even then I may or may not look at him.
So, what am I waiting for, why am I still here? There are quite a few practical reasons, but the most pertinent one to my M is that I'm hoping that once he sees I am serious about not living like that, he will become more open to finding another way. In all honesty I do not expect that to happen, not even a little bit of me really thinks that will happen. I think I would have to actually leave in order for him to truly get it that I'm not willing to live like this. And for me to leave puts the kids in a very sad situation where their lives will forever change and that kills me. BUT. I feel like if he actually lets me go, if he can do that, then I'll finally after all these years have my answer. Somedays I seriously wonder why I'm procrastinating getting that answer, but I know it's because I don't want to look back and wonder if I'd just given it a little longer, could things have been different? So rather than leave physically, I'm testing this out while living in the same house. It's been about 7 months since I started to really rebuke H's behaviors toward me...about the same amount of time since we've been intimate, maybe even a little longer actually. It's been about 2.5 months since he actually told me he doesn't ever want to go anywhere socially with me again, accepts we'll never be physically intimate again and he'll never give me his heart again and can't be that "all in, fairy tale husband" for me. So, I guess some progress has been made if you can call it that. My refusal to continue on with the way things were and question his behaviors toward me at least forced him to take a position in the matter rather than sending me mixed signals based on how he feels toward me on any given day. So now I know how he feels. I, in turn, have made it clear how I feel. Now I need to give it time so he knows I'm not going back to how things were. So, with this time, do I continue to be hard? Or do I soften? I feel like if I soften at all, even a little, it sends the message that I'm going backward, closer to how things were and it sends the message to him that all he needs to do is wait me out. And that is definitely NOT the message I want to send.

[Davide]

Stay strong. He needs to soften not you and you cannot make that happen. You can only push him away more with pursuit. Do not tolerate his disrespect ever.

This is an awful ditch but you are strong enough to make it through and thrive on the other side.

[HelenaJ]

Thanks for the encouragement Davide.

You can only push him away more with pursuit.

An observation I've made in reading other people's situations is that the WW or WAS doesn't seem to want any pursuit whatsoever, it turns them away. In my situation, oddly enough, I think pursuit is exactly what my H wants from me. However, I've learned that it's no longer healthy for me to do so, no matter how much I love him, no matter how much I want to convince him. He wants to hear it but he can't/won't hear it if that makes sense.

I've been making my way through the thread that Vanilla posted, some major time and thought went into that wow. Thanks for sharing. My H likes to be viewed as a "good guy", he thrives on it actually and has always treated me better in public than he does at home...randomly telling my friends how beautiful I am. Um, ok?? Never said that to me when it was just the two of us! He loves for people to think he's a great guy and a great husband. He is very covert with the mean things he says and he's very, very good at what he does. It's also situational, like he doesn't just randomly lose his temper and start screaming or anything like that. In fact, he never screams and rarely swears and doesn't usually name call per se unless it's "insane" "delusional" "horrible wife" or something like that. He doesn't tell me I'm fat or ugly or stupid...I feel like that's many levels below him in terms of how he conducts himself.

This partly ties in to my decision to no longer pursue him....he has his own set of facts and beliefs about me and to try to convince him otherwise is futile. I've resorted to "the only way to win is not to play". Not that "winning" is important to me, I'd much rather do what works than to "win", I'm just using a figure of speech here. To continue to engage in the relationship conversation with him is simply asking to be hurt.

So, I mostly just avoid him. I try not to go places with him if I don't have to, like to the mall or grocery store....I just interact with the kids and keep to myself when appropriate. I feel sad every day of course, but I try to keep busy. Literally every second my mind is free, it instantly goes back to my marriage situation. It's like continuously waking up every morning like "oh yeah I almost forgot, my life [censored]."

I have noticed that he is trying to cut back on his drinking, he's drinking O'douls in between real beer...it certainly isn't for me or our relationship, but hey, good for him.

[Vanilla]

Look I really do get it. It takes a great deal to get out of an abusive R, it does. And no matter what the choice is yours.

Be very careful to be safe.

It is a certainty that once an abuser knows you are done they will get way out of control. Definitely. For sure. Don't doubt it.

And you have been in this a long time so it's harder.

I am glad you are reading through the thread and it's very intense so take it slowly. It is very practical and designed to explain the dynamics of abuse interactions.

Once you know then you will never unknow.

I am around if you need to post, my thread is in surviving. I have been where you are and at long last am free.

I can point to some extra resources if you need them.

Stay safe.

V

[HelenaJ]

Thanks Vanilla.

I was just thinking about my H's last text to me which was on May 12. He said "I am sorry that I did absolutely nothing to you. I am such a jerk."

I didn't answer him. Can ANY of you look at your spouse honestly and say you did absolutely NOTHING EVER to harm the marriage? We've been together 26 years...we literally grew into adulthood together.

What do you do with that?

[Vanilla]

You laugh at the stupidity of it.

Totally jerky word salad, scrambled eggs for brains.

V

[sandi2]

My, my, my.......gosh! I only read the first few posts you wrote some time ago. I started getting upset and had to skim over the next few.......and finally, I just stopped. I get really upset when I read about a woman like you. ((hugs)). A woman who thinks she has wronged her H......and he has made, and continues to make, her life lonely & miserable. An alcoholic and porn addictive H who was absent physically and emotionally from the MR for years. A controlling, punishing, unforgiving man........who has made it clear he would NEVER love you again, and NEVER be intimate with you again, and the only reason he's still around is for the kids. You first posted in 2015, and you are here again......so sad, lonely, guilted, unloved, heartbroken......and, IMHO, abused.

Okay, you messed up several years ago and acted inappropriately with a guy. Does this equate to all the times your H jerks off to the porn he watches? IDK, but I know when a H is addicted to porn, it affects the couple's intimacy. He doesn't appear to take into account that M is a two-way street of forgiveness. When your H would come home on weekends, I don't think he was giving all his attention to the kids just b/c he was the father of year. I'm sorry, if that cuts deeply. He was not showing you enough attention for a reason, Helena, and it started a long time before you ever kissed that guy in the band.

Your H would be gone Mondays through Thursdays every week, and he wasn't more interested in your attention, time, emotional & sexual needs? Yet, he sees you talking to another guy, and when you confess your kissing.......OMG! That's it. He's done! No forgiveness! Nothing! Something is way off, here. This man does not love/care for you like a H should feel for his W. He has placed all this tremdous guilt on you, and told you he would never love you again. That is not a MR, and it is no way to live your life. He is making you the scapegoat for something else.

What would he have done if you'd had an affair? What if he'd had a WW like me! But you see, these type of guys don't have a W like me. These type of guys have a W they can control, guilt, punish, and use to cover up their own sins. Women like me are M to nice guys that we can manipulate, deceive, cheat, etc.

Well, you didn't come here to get my soucasim. I don't know that I can give you advice to save the M. However, there have been other ladies here who may have experienced something similar from their H's. Some have been able to find their strenth within, and their self worth......to rise from the ashes and fly.

I am concerned for you, Helena. You are so lonely and unhappy b/c of your H's rejection and unforgivness. Life is too short to live this way. Find your strength, self-worth, and happiness.

((hugs))

[HelenaJ]

Hi Sandi, thanks for posting, I was beginning to think I'm a lost cause

Okay, you messed up several years ago and acted inappropriately with a guy. Does this equate to all the times your H jerks off to the porn he watches? IDK, but I know when a H is addicted to porn, it affects the couple's intimacy.

The porn issue has affected me very deeply but he insists that all guys do it. And I know they do so what can I say? I feel like with most guys though, it seems like they're pretty easily distracted...like whatever happens to come up on the screen will work, ha. But my H searches for actual people...radio DJs, hollywood celebrities, fitness models, etc. I find that to be so much more invasive and offensive because it's like he sees or hears about someone and makes a mental note or something to look for naked pictures of her later....it makes me ridiculously insecure even watching a movie with him if the actress is someone I know he's searched before or will search. It's just so messed up. And I have no reason to be this insecure, I am very physically fit and I take very good care of myself. I know everyone, and even he, says it's not about me. He acts like he doesn't understand my hurt about it and took it off the table for discussion a long time ago, his words. He has told me all guys do it, it's not something he's going to stop. Not that long ago, he told me he did take a break from it and had no sex drive at all. I'm not sure why he told me that, if he felt like I would then be grateful for it?? But if that's what he was hoping, it did the opposite because I was like what?! So I'm not enough to keep your sex drive going? wth? One time I actually walked in on him masturbating in the living room to porn...I was devastated, totally. I mentioned that at one point, that it felt like he had cheated on me...I know he didn't but it FELT like that. All he said was, imagine that because meanwhile you really WERE cheating on me. There's just no point in trying to talk to him.

Your H would be gone Mondays through Thursdays every week, and he wasn't more interested in your attention, time, emotional & sexual needs?

I can't say that exactly because we had alone time when the kids were napping or in bed. He just wouldn't reserve time for just us, like to go anywhere and be husband and wife. He's just never needed alone time like I did...I wanted to feel like his wife and not just Mommy. He never understood that and I get it if he can't understand...but you would think regardless if he understood it or not he'd at least try to accommodate it but he never would...he always withheld and I don't know why. That goes back before we even got married honestly. He was never interested in going places with me or developing mutual interests. He was always a homebody and before we had kids he would stay up late drinking and playing video games (watching porn?) and then sleep until 1 or 2 in the afternoon while I would beg him to get up and do something with me. If we had a function to go to or something he would pick a fight so we didn't have to go....like laying around and not getting ready until I would get upset and then he would accuse me of picking the fight since I was the one that was mad afterall.

He is making you the scapegoat for something else.

I have thought this soooo many times. But what?? It's like a puzzle piece I can't find.

I don't know that I can give you advice to save the M.

That's what everyone ultimately tells me, my IC included....but you're only hearing my side. That makes it really hard for anyone to give me guidance ya know? No one can know how badly he's been affected by my actions unless he has the chance to tell his side. At the end of the day though, where I'm at, is that however he feels, I can't change it. I've tried. He has to WANT to feel differently toward me than he does and he just doesn't. He wants to stay where he is. Which I just can't understand because he says he still loves me, would look for someone just like me, he has given me random compliments even since he's declared that we'll never be a couple again....he just insists that he can't ever trust me with his heart again. So unfortunately that leaves me with this GOD AWFUL choice to make. Is he taking the high road? He could be right? Maybe he's been so hurt by me that he truly just doesn't want to ever try again. But he's staying in this M because our kids don't deserve a broken home. I mean, that's either really f#%^ed up or really admirable. I truly can't decide.

[artista]

Helena... in the beginning, i followed your thread, and i did what i could to provide you with some perspective... after a while, you stopped posting... since you have begun posting again, i have tried to pick up with following your thread, but i cannot do it... reading your interactions with that selfish, psycho H of yours actually gives me anxiety... i can't breathe... my heart races... no one can save you but you... and you don't seem to be in a place where you are ready to do that... i hurt for you... but MORE THAN THAT--i ache for your children... you and your H are damaging your children... BOTH of you are hurting them... they will not escape this unharmed... you are retarding their abilities to have future healthy relationships with potential spouses... i have asked you this in the past, and i will throw it out there one more time: WHY ARE YOU WILLING TO SACRIFICE THE WELL-BEING OF YOUR CHILDREN FOR YOUR SELF-CENTERED HUSBAND WHO IS A SELF-ABSORBED MANIPULATOR? even you have called him such things... as i said before, YOU MUST PUT YOUR LOVE FOR YOUR CHILDREN before your love for their father... i hope you get there soon... for the sake of your precious children, i hope you are willing to put aside caring about how your H sees you...

--artista

[artista]

But he's staying in this M because our kids don't deserve a broken home. I mean, that's either really f#%^ed up or really admirable. I truly can't decide.

your are both fooling yourselves if you think your children are not living in a broken home... worse than that--it's not even a clean break... it's a compound fractured home riddled with infection... how nobel of your H to be willing to give your children something so sick... that you think it might be admirable shows just how sick you are... you are not healthy, your H is not healthy... pray tell how you think you can give your children a whole, healthy home? please...

--artista