She still wants to take a trip together to visit a friend and go to a music festival with her co-worker. I also have a feeling she is going to bring up the workout class when I go tomorrow (it hasn't come up again, should I still tell her no if she asks to join?)
44, I'm a bit blurry on some of the nuances of the level of your WW's infidelity. Was it emotional, physical, ongoing, one time? Remind me.
And when she returned, it sounded like she understood that transparency would be needed if she were to recommit to the M, but she wasn't ready to do that, correct?
If I'm correct that she betrayed your trust with another man and has since apologized but not recommitted to the M or agreed to any type of transparency then you need to be very careful. If you read my first post about returning WWs then you should have also read my post about the horror of 'maybe'.
If you are to remain in limbo then you can't assume that you're working towards a point when WW can recommit to the M. I mean of course that's what you want and you can do your part to allow that to be possible. But it's not in your control. And that may not be how it plays out. WW could be in a continued affair. She might want things calm and consequence free at home while lining up other dates to explore greener grass. Who knows? But it would be very foolish to assume that since she 'said' she was 'sorry' that she feels a deep enough remorse to resist other men, particularly when she's already made it clear that you two aren't in a committed relationship together.
So what I'm asking is if you knew she was lying to you and cheating on you what would you be comfortable with?
Would you allow her to shower with you? Go to the gym with you? Cuddle with you?
I'm not telling you that you shouldn't do these things. But if the answer is 'heck no, I wouldn't be this close to someone that is texting nude pics to someone else' then I think you're exposing yourself emotionally to someone that has hurt you once and hasn't given much reason to think it won't happen again.
I really think the best answer is to remain detached, GAL like crazy, be the H only a fool would leave, and to maintain the boundaries you would if you knew she was cheating. If she likes you and doesn't like those boundaries then she has some decisions to make. But to think that if you don't have any boundaries that maybe someday she'll respect them seems super backwards to me.
Myself, I wouldn't remain with someone that had cheated and not recommitted. I would distance myself and then explain to her that as much as I wanted the M to work she had opted out of the M and that 'not sure' was as far from a commitment as 'I want a divorce', and that I deserved a committed partner that was willing to fight for the M and to regain my trust. Since she can't provide that I am going to be taking steps towards physical separation and will be filing for divorce. This wouldn't be a bluff, I wouldn't be willing to live with that. If she changes her tune I'd listen to what she had to say, but if she blames me for ruining any chances I'd keep walking all the way to the court because that is f'd up.
But that's just me NOW. Right after BD I wouldn't have had the spine to do that. Either way though, if you intend to continue to live in limbo with an uncommitted WW I think you need to open your eyes to the reality of where you're at which is *NOT* the illusion she is giving you to keep you sated.
Artista, Sandi, what are your thoughts? I think in house separation is super tough because it's so easy for the LBS to forego any boundaries because it seems like 'progress', but that this just allows WW to avoid any consequence or necessity for any change. I know it's tempting to think that maybe you can just make her fall in love with you again by being so awesome, but has that ever really worked?
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
44 you are in a very tough spot- I hope things work out for you. I do have a question about in house separation. I was told by an IC that in house separations will work because the WAS gets to see the transformation in the LBS occur right before them and gets to see that changes have been maintained. The IC also said that 80% of separations end in D. For the good folks that are here- what is your read on this? Sorry to hijack your stitch 44 but I am curious to find out.
M51 w50 T-20Yrs M-16Yrs S15- mad at W for not trying and giving up 1 Awesum dog BD 10/31/17 separate rooms 02/08/18 wife moved out 05/17/18
44, I'm a bit blurry on some of the nuances of the level of your WW's infidelity. Was it emotional, physical, ongoing, one time? Remind me.
She had some very young co-workers that were here temporarily and we/she started going out with them occasionally (very limited social pool at this location). Right before they left, she took an overnight trip (they had stopped over in another city in the same country) to go out with them one more time. She claims she got drunk and kissed one of them. Next day was BD. They then texted constantly for about a month after he left. She claims she broke it off at the beginning of May. I have no way of 100% verifying these claims, but they match what I had suspected from my own "investigation". Many people here have told me to be highly skeptical of the "just kissing" part--which I am--however a couple messages I saw between them mentioned this encounter and did not imply it had gone farther. She has not cheated before (to my knowledge, but I'm pretty confident).
Quote:
And when she returned, it sounded like she understood that transparency would be needed if she were to recommit to the M, but she wasn't ready to do that, correct?
She wasn't ready to recommit to the M. I don't think the transparency has anything to do with the problem. She understood that it would be needed and agreed.
Quote:
If I'm correct that she betrayed your trust with another man and has since apologized but not recommitted to the M or agreed to any type of transparency then you need to be very careful. If you read my first post about returning WWs then you should have also read my post about the horror of 'maybe'.
Is it part of the same thread? I will go back and make sure I've read it.
Quote:
If you are to remain in limbo then you can't assume that you're working towards a point when WW can recommit to the M. I mean of course that's what you want and you can do your part to allow that to be possible. But it's not in your control. And that may not be how it plays out. WW could be in a continued affair. She might want things calm and consequence free at home while lining up other dates to explore greener grass. Who knows? But it would be very foolish to assume that since she 'said' she was 'sorry' that she feels a deep enough remorse to resist other men, particularly when she's already made it clear that you two aren't in a committed relationship together.
So what I'm asking is if you knew she was lying to you and cheating on you what would you be comfortable with?
Would you allow her to shower with you? Go to the gym with you? Cuddle with you?
I'm not telling you that you shouldn't do these things. But if the answer is 'heck no, I wouldn't be this close to someone that is texting nude pics to someone else' then I think you're exposing yourself emotionally to someone that has hurt you once and hasn't given much reason to think it won't happen again.
I really think the best answer is to remain detached, GAL like crazy, be the H only a fool would leave, and to maintain the boundaries you would if you knew she was cheating. If she likes you and doesn't like those boundaries then she has some decisions to make. But to think that if you don't have any boundaries that maybe someday she'll respect them seems super backwards to me.
Myself, I wouldn't remain with someone that had cheated and not recommitted. I would distance myself and then explain to her that as much as I wanted the M to work she had opted out of the M and that 'not sure' was as far from a commitment as 'I want a divorce', and that I deserved a committed partner that was willing to fight for the M and to regain my trust. Since she can't provide that I am going to be taking steps towards physical separation and will be filing for divorce. This wouldn't be a bluff, I wouldn't be willing to live with that. If she changes her tune I'd listen to what she had to say, but if she blames me for ruining any chances I'd keep walking all the way to the court because that is f'd up.
But that's just me NOW. Right after BD I wouldn't have had the spine to do that. Either way though, if you intend to continue to live in limbo with an uncommitted WW I think you need to open your eyes to the reality of where you're at which is *NOT* the illusion she is giving you to keep you sated.
Artista, Sandi, what are your thoughts? I think in house separation is super tough because it's so easy for the LBS to forego any boundaries because it seems like 'progress', but that this just allows WW to avoid any consequence or necessity for any change. I know it's tempting to think that maybe you can just make her fall in love with you again by being so awesome, but has that ever really worked?
You make some GREAT points and I completely agree. I should probably be hedging more for the fact that she might still be cheating or will again in the future. Again, I don't think this is the case, but I'm also not naive. The limbo is indeed torturous, in large part because I agree with your point that I cannot assume we are working toward recommitment. I get torn between what you said about considering "not sure" as the same as "I want a D", and being patient with the holding pattern, as MWD calls it in DR.
Your last paragraph on in-house separation is gold. If she is dictating the terms and suffering no consequence, why would she need to recommit? The weird thing is that she agrees we cannot be separated or "just friends" while under the same roof. She just doesn't seem able to make a choice. She doesn't believe we can get out of the old rut if we tried again. She says she has spent too long not knowing if she wants the relationship. She goes into her specific frustrations and then claims it would be me "trying too hard" if we were to attempt to fix them. But then she says she "needs me" and can't let me go. She is stuck in limbo herself.
Frankly, I think it's a mix of immaturity and idealism. And you're right, I'm not sure how me sticking around "being awesome" is going to fix those problems. It's tempting because she is still in that place where she wants to talk about specifics and that makes me feel like she does have some hope deep down that they could improve (or why discuss them?). It's like she wants to try without saying so and giving me false hope. OR perhaps locking herself into a commitment, but I don't think she feels she is free to go explore greener pastures. We are not separated in that sense and both agree it isn't appropriate to be seeing other people, etc. Like I said, she is not saying "let's be friends". I can hardly wrap my head around what she is saying, because it is so emotion-based. It's extremely frustrating.
M: 26 W: 26 M: 1.5 T: 3 No kids BD: 31 March 2018
W's affair began: 23 March 2018 Affair confirmed: 18 April 2018 Confrontation/claims she ended A: 14 May 2018 Ended in-house separation: July 2018
44 you are in a very tough spot- I hope things work out for you. I do have a question about in house separation. I was told by an IC that in house separations will work because the WAS gets to see the transformation in the LBS occur right before them and gets to see that changes have been maintained. The IC also said that 80% of separations end in D. For the good folks that are here- what is your read on this? Sorry to hijack your stitch 44 but I am curious to find out.
No problem, LoneWlf. I'm curious too because I see a lot of logic for both sides of the argument. I always hear "don't leave the home", chances drop dramatically, etc. More chances to convince them things could be different, etc. But then, I also hear "you can't nice them back", waiting around while they suffer no consequence won't work, etc.
M: 26 W: 26 M: 1.5 T: 3 No kids BD: 31 March 2018
W's affair began: 23 March 2018 Affair confirmed: 18 April 2018 Confrontation/claims she ended A: 14 May 2018 Ended in-house separation: July 2018
But then, I also hear "you can't nice them back", waiting around while they suffer no consequence won't work, etc.
44tries,
The issue that most of us can't wrap our heads around is that our chances of reconciliation actually increase if we move on with our own lives and build a great life for ourselves. You're young and full of potential, use that potential. If she decides she wants to be with you, she'll let you know. If she doesn't want you back, no big deal, you've got your own happy life and you can move on. Reconciliation or not, you still have a great life. Why is that so hard to understand?
Frankly, I think it's a mix of immaturity and idealism. And you're right, I'm not sure how me sticking around "being awesome" is going to fix those problems. It's tempting because she is still in that place where she wants to talk about specifics and that makes me feel like she does have some hope deep down that they could improve (or why discuss them?). It's like she wants to try without saying so and giving me false hope. OR perhaps locking herself into a commitment, but I don't think she feels she is free to go explore greener pastures. We are not separated in that sense and both agree it isn't appropriate to be seeing other people, etc. Like I said, she is not saying "let's be friends". I can hardly wrap my head around what she is saying, because it is so emotion-based. It's extremely frustrating.
Very well articulated. Yes, her emotions are all over the place. This is why she can't be the one leading here.
Suppose you knew she'd never change at ALL (which is in fact essentially what she's tried to tell you). Would you continue to emotionally invest? Of course not. You are doing this in hope that it will change her feelings and behavior and then frustrated when it doesn't. This is not detachment. It's like you are a director have this movie script in your mind that YOUR role is to become a better H, and HER role is to recommit to the M and discover that she can fall back in love with you. But she told you "No, 44, I'm not playing that part." And yet you go on saying "Maybe if I just pay her the 14 million she'll show up and star in my movie anyway" and then you get impatient or surprised or upset that she doesn't.
Moving out and filing D doesn't have to happen today and that's not even the most important thing. The priority is for you to get a new movie script. One that centers around you alone. One that is down a path of increasing detachment and independence. One that doesn't hinge on WW because she has told you not to count on her. One that can flex for different contingencies but isn't reliant on them.
Essentially you focus on you, don't invest anything into WW. Be a better person for you. Take charge of your own life and happiness. Like doodler said, build a life so fulfilling that whether she wants to be part of it or not is inconsequential. When is the right time to file D and separate? Well, at some point when you have a new life built the old life can be released like a snake shedding it's skin. Neither with malice or regret, but just because it has stopped becoming useful.
I'd recommend much more time invested in GAL activity, much less focus on your WW. As long as you evaluate that quality of your life by how easy it is to interpret occasional hints of affection out of her confused emotional turbulence as a 'positive sign' you are floundering. When you get to the point that you just shrug because you don't need her drama in your life then you are doing it the right way.
One thing I always say to LBS's is this: How can you expect them to let go of OM, if you can't let go of WW? Seriously. Think about it. You want her to do the growth because you're not strong enough to? Someone has to lead and it can't be her. Show her what strength and detachment is. And then get to the point where you don't care if she learns or not. You can do this.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
So I hope you are listening to Zues, becauseif you can apply what he is saying, it will truly change your life and the path you walk from this moment forward.
My IC talked a lot about two people bringing their best to a M in order to make it work, but the big idea I took away from it was that I need to build my own pillar. If I'm not meeting my own needs, how can I meet another person's needs?
Here's the other thing I want to mention, and I'm sure you'll get feedback from others here on this as well...
The cuddling and taking showers is your W's way of figuring out if she still can have that affection she needs from you, but it's actually a really big temp check, she's just not looking at it that way.
You've done all this work explaining to her how she needs to either recommit, or D. She heard your message, understood where your boundaries were and then you just let your wall down.
If she "doesn't know" what she wants, why does she get the benefit of all the R stuff?
Would you let your roommate climb in the shower with you? Until she can verbalize her commitment and show you the work, she really shouldn't be getting R benefits.
If it was me, the first thing I would've said when she climbed in the shower is, "So what's happening here? You told me you didn't know what you wanted and you think it's ok to climb in the shower with me?"
YOU have worth, man! Don't let yourself get pulled around like that!
It's kind of like that "why buy the cow when you can get get the milk for free" principle.
And I know you're craving that attention and all of that really felt good (trust me, I know!), but none of it helps you with a goal of detachment, or restoration of R because if she knows she can have it whenever she wants it, then there's no value placed on those actions.
