Affair, no feelings...is there hope? IV

[44tries]

You want the honest-to-goodness truth? I am seldom deliberate about anything I post. By that I mean I don't think it out, before I word it. (That may be pretty obvious in places). Anyway, I just started typing. I hope that doesn't disappoint you.......or scare you to death. (lol) I had intended yesterday to try to organize something, but I ran short on time, so I shot from the hip. So, you don't have to use my exact words (that would be a lot to memorize, anyway..... ) or be that specific. I was simply trying to give an idea of how she might approach you, and how you could handle it.....since you seem to like the idea of scenarios.

No, it doesn't disappoint or scare me . I just wondered. Knowing that, I will feel free to take bits and pieces from each if it's appropriate.

Hope it wasn't too confusing at the end of each scenario where I referred back to the two boundaries. So, each scenario was kind of leading up to the final statement of your boundaries and/or anything attached I previous had said with those. I just didn't want to rewrite all that long speech after each scenario. If you are confused, please ask away. Oh, and for the fifth one, I should have added it at the bottom, just to make sure you get in the boundary about not tolerating disrespect in any form......b/c most of the 5th one was more on the subject of her secret affair.

Thanks for clarifying about #5. I understand not wanting to rewrite the boundary speech five times . The only thing I'm confused about is having the boundary speech before confirming she wants to work on the MR. That is the right order, right? I understand the idea that she should know what I expect before committing, but it also seems a bit odd to start laying out the boundaries before I know for sure that she even wants to continue. I guess as the actual scenario plays out, I will have a good idea which direction it's going before getting to the boundary speech, so maybe this confusion is just me over-analyzing ahead of time.

I didn't write out every possible scenario, b/c there could always be something unpredictable, however I hope you'll practice using various things she might say and how you would handle it. I did not write the very best case scenario, which would be for her to feel very remoresful and to be 100% in and willing to do whatever you said without any hesitation. You would still need to state your boundaries, but obviously, you would not have to be harsh. Firmly, yes. You will take you cue from her attitude and how she reacts to everything. I didn't write it out, b/c frankly, I just doubt she's going to come home feeling completely remorseful. Now, she may feel some guilt over the affair, but you really didn't get into discussing how badly she disrespected you in other ways, when you talked with her on the phone......or did you? She may not be expecting anything but talking about the OM. Waywards find justifications for their actions, and that is one reason why it's hard for them to feel remorse quickly. But it's needed for both your sakes.

She did bring up her bad treatment of me on her own during our phone conversation. She seems to have some awareness of her bad habits because this is not the first time she has told me she knows her behavior toward me can get out of control. Not that we discuss it often, and I honestly cannot remember what I have said in response to these admissions/apologies in the past. I don't think I was too quick to forgive or downplay, but let's just assume I was way too passive about it . This time, on the phone, I made sure to reinforce what she said about her horrible treatment. I wasn't a jerk, but I said something like "yes, you have been disrespectful in a lot of ways and it isn't okay". That was actually when she became so distraught she couldn't talk anymore. I don't think she was expecting me to be so firm in agreement. You might remember one of her follow up texts said "I can barely live knowing and hearing how awful I was." That was directly referring to the part of the conversation where she brought up her bad treatment. Anyway, I'm not sure where her remorse for that lies on the sincerity scale, but I think there is at least some.

Funny you should say so, b/c I had not planned out any scenario or how the discussion would go, but when I started the fifth one, I thought, "Well, may I should try to write one as the the best case scenario", but first thing you know.......it took a turn. And that's just likely what will happen IRL. If you see her start out in a somewhat positive direction.....she could turn on a dime.

This is probably very accurate. I'm trying to be prepared for anything and for wild swings. My biggest concern is if she shows a lot of ambivalence, expressing whatever concerns she has about moving forward to work on the MR. I don't want to fall into the trap where I start trying to convince her. I can see her saying things like "IDK if we just don't have a connection and aren't meant for each other, or if I just refuse to let it in." Or "Maybe I'm just too damaged. If I really had true love to offer, it wouldn't be so hard." "You don't deserve to let my inability to be happy prevent you from a happy life." "No one else should be dragged down by my repeated cycle to self-sabotage everything good in my life." I'm making this up, but you get the idea...a bunch of self-focused musings, feeling sorry for herself, saying she has issues but they can't be fixed. She could very well suffer from depression or some other mental health issue, but she refuses to get help due to fear for her career. For this same reason, I'm worried she will be resistant to counseling.

Anyway, you can see how if she says things like the above, me being analytical Mr. Nice Guy, my instinct is going to be to try to offer solutions. Suddenly, I'm over-explaining and sounding like I'm trying to convince her why her issues don't mean our MR is doomed. If you have any tips about how to respond to any "woe is me" tangents, I would be grateful.

Okay, that's good. If she asks or accuses, you don't have to reveal your source of intel. Not that it really matters in your case, but it just gives her room to argue, be stubborn, etc. She is the one who did wrong, so don't let her twist it around to sound like you were wrong to look.

Got it, I won't worry about evading/lying on this one particular issue, but I don't think it will come up.

I thought she had arranged for someone else to meet her. Anyway........No, you don't try to have small talk with her during the ride home, 44! You nice guy, you!! Let her worry about what to say during that ride home. As wordy as you are, she'll get concerned seeing you not having anything to say, don't you think? Why should you be asking her anything about her trip? Doesn't that equate to calling her and responding to her texts when she was there? Maybe not, but You could care less about her trip, and making idle chit-chat for 35 min. Get it?

She tried to say she would have work do it, but she wanted me to all along. I wasn't going to play her game where she tried to say she wouldn't bother me and hoped I would chase. At some point, she just directly asked me.

Ahh, NGS rears it's ugly head Okay, no small talk. Understood.

So, just say hello, and speak if it is absolutely neccessessary to have some type of response.....then mainly use a one syllable grunt. don't do a lot of smiling and acting so nappy to see her. Know what I mean? Act serious. Do not try to make friendly chit-chat on the way home, b/c this is your usual MO, and she'll expect it. She should be nervous and worried about how you are going to act when she comes home. Seeing you chattering away like Mr. Nice Guy, she'll think...."Hey, no worries, he's just fine and I will continue being a bully"! If she decides to take advantage while you are behind the wheel, (and come to think of it, why wouldn't she) and starts trying to get into everything, you can tell her to wait till getting home to have this discussion......and not while you are driving. This may be where she uses the scenario......"Are you still made at me"? Or.....you can just wing it, but I think you'd do better waiting till you get home and you have your bearings. I hope she pees in her pants!

This made me laugh!! I will make her sweat (or pee her pants).

(I can picture you in my mind). You are nervous about the transition b/c you have been apart a few days and knowing this is all coming. Out of nervousness, you may feel/want to chatter her ears off......but resist the temptation and notice how nervous your calmness makes her. Seriously, if she has any maturity whatsoever, she should expect to at least get talking from you! This little switcheroo should help build your confidence.

The bold sentence confused me a bit, but I think I understand. I will resist temptation to be nice and chatty and be ultra cool, calm. You are saying she will expect me to talk? So the calmness will make her nervous, right?

She doesn't have to own a dominant personality to be wayward. I hope she is very nervous and anxiously waiting for you to make the first move. That's why I said I hope she pees in her pants. She should be very concerned. Don't go all melty-cheese on me, now. You can't start feeling sorry for her, if you detect her being nervous. If you see her tear up and start crying while you are giving her the tough talk......don't you dare start melting. Don't offer to hold her, hug or comfort her. Women have used tears for 6,000 years to manipulate men. Seriously, I hope she does cry over her bad treatment of you. This could be the beginning of something good.......like a wonderful MR, once she grows up and loses that self entitlement.

This will be the hardest thing!! No more melty-cheesy 44. I will not offer any consolation if she cries. It helps to think of it as manipulation, even if she is being sincere.

I think I started those scenarios with her making the initial move into the talk, but I was just trying to show you some idea how to respond and keep on track. If you initiate the talk ......then you can follow that post I sent with the two boundaries, b/c that was in itself a scenario.

This makes sense. If she doesn't initiate, I will just move forward with the boundaries talk. I guess this will sort of be assuming she wants to keep our relationship? If she doesn't, she will say so? This kind of goes back to my original question of which comes first...

Well, when you say it like that......you aren't controlling. You are telling her what you cannot and will not tolerate any longer. You aren't telling her she has no choice in the matter. In fact, you are wanting to know her decision, rather than continuing on pretending some half-marriage arrangement where she is manipulating you at every turn. So, IMHO, it is not an ultimatum, but I figure someone reading would see it differently. I have read the differences between boundaries and ultimatums, and have even written posts about it, but I lost my bookmarks and yesterday my brain was too tired.....so I coped out and just said, okay call it an ultimatum, I don't care. (lol)

Lol. Okay, I get it. I think it depends on how you look at it, but in this case, it doesn't really matter. She needs to decide if she wants the MR or not, and know she can't have in-betweensies (yes, I just made that word up). She might not feel totally convicted, but I think (hope) if I make her choose all or nothing, she will choose all. To steal a line from MWD, we can always get divorced. Committing to give it our best shot doesn't have to mean we are trapped as prisoners in an unhappy MR forever. I feel this would be her biggest hesitation--to know she can't promise her feelings will return or whatever other [insert woe is me problem here], and be afraid she will never get another chance to escape (remember, I used to be the guy she knew would never leave). Oo back to the temptation I know I will have to say all these things...I think I need to tell myself to state the boundaries and then STFU...

I will end for today. If you think of something, let me know. I feel good about this and you are going to handle it fine. You have someone very powerful in your corner. He loves her just as much as you, and God wants this M to work, too. If she won't be the W she is suppose to be, you'll be hurt, but you will heal and God will take care of you. I'm saying you, the man I know as 44, are going to be just fine with or without this woman in your life. But I feel you two are going to make it. ((hugs))

Thank you so much, Sandi. All your help means the world to me. I know you are right, and I will be just fine either way. But, I hope your feeling is right, and we will make it.