Newbie In Need Of Guidance #3

[rminer]

Thanks for the encouragement, Steve.

I don't know how far I will go, but I will be doing something special for her.


Sad thing is, I had a second honeymoon planned. Her favorite place is the ocean, so I had two weeks in the Caribbean booked. Should have left yesterday, but I scrubbed it two months ago.

Maybe next year. **Fingers crossed**

[SteveLW]

Thanks for the encouragement, Steve.

I don't know how far I will go, but I will be doing something special for her.


Sad thing is, I had a second honeymoon planned. Her favorite place is the ocean, so I had two weeks in the Caribbean booked. Should have left yesterday, but I scrubbed it two months ago.

Maybe next year. **Fingers crossed**

That was a good call. A romantic getaway right now is obviously too much. But yes, celebrate, it is 25 years!

[rminer]

So our 25th anniversary has come and gone. I wouldn't say it was a rousing success, but I don't think I lost any ground either. I didn't do anything over the top, but I did do something unexpected.


When I left in the morning I left a card on the counter where she would see it. I didn't get mushy but there was some feeling to what I wrote. Normally, I give her a card and gift in the evening when I get home from work, so I think she thought that was all I was going to do.


In the early afternoon I had a dozen roses delivered to her. This is something I have only done once before (I usually give flowers to her myself), so it was surprising to her. Shortly after they arrived she texted me a three line message. All she said was that she was confused when the delivery van pulled in to the driveway, they were beautiful and thank you. The message was just matter of fact, so I thought it didn't mean much to her.


A few hours later I noticed a Facebook notification, so I checked. She posted a picture saying how beautiful they were, how I can still surprise her and how she loved them. She spent the rest of the day liking and replying to comments.


When I got home, it was as it usually is lately. No major excitement. D15 waited until my W left the room and then told me that my W was very excited when she saw the delivery van and that she smiled when she read my card. This was a bit of a relief because I wasn't sure if she truly liked them or not even though she posted about it. According to D15, my W "ran" to the door when they came.


We didn't go to dinner because of the kid's activities and the hour, so we are planning on going out tomorrow. The rest of the night we sat in the family room, had a few drinks and talked until 3am about nothing in particular. Very similar to when we were still dating. We didn't have an R talk - the closest we came was moving and the family vacation she is planning. We just talked about life in general.


My W gave me a card, but it wasn't what she usually gives. It was simply a humor card with a nice note. She said that she was thankful for our children and the life we had built together. Not what I hoped for, but it was at least some acknowledgment. I honestly figured she wouldn't do anything, so I can't complain too much.


As I said, I didn't lose ground, but I am left with a few questions that I need to answer for myself.

[rminer]

My W and I went to dinner for our anniversary last Saturday as we planned and it seemed a bit different than the last two times. At times and seemed awkward and forced, at times it seemed natural.

She seemed happy to be there so I don't think that was the issue. She even posted about it on Facebook while we were there when she hasn't done in the past. I don't really know how to explain what I mean, it was just a feeling I got.


Overall the evening did go well, but it did get little tense when she brought up an outing for S8 coming up in a few weeks. It is an all day / overnight event, but it falls on the same day as a wedding we have to attend. She wants to drop S8 off at the event and have me go after the reception to spend the night.


I told her I didn't think that was a good idea because S8 would not want to be there all day without me. She stated that he wouldn't be alone and would be fine. After beating around the bush for a few minutes I finally told her that S8 does not want to go because he would have to spend all day with the OM and that he really doesn't like him.

She denied it of course, so I gave her some examples of how S8 has acted around the OM and how he has flat-out ignored him at times. I also told her that S8 has told me he wants to quit because of the OM. My W at that point said that he was not going to quit, and I agreed, but I did suggest that it would be wise to change locations for S8. She of course hates this idea. My W then told me how S8 always sad how much he liked the OM last year and how well they got along at recent event I did not attend. I said that may be true but, he does not like him now and the day after that event he complained to me about the OM again.

We didn't argue about it, we just had a discussion. With as defensive as she became, it could have ruined the evening but it didn't. My demeanor was matter of fact, firm and I held my ground.


The following day there didn't seem to be any ill effects from the night before. In fact since then I have seen more changes in my W that are confusing me even more than ever.

In the interest of not making this another Marathon post, I will post about it tomorrow.

[sandi2]

She seems to be in denial about S8's feelings toward OM, or else she doesn't care. Whether or not that's the case, I think she "uses" S8 in the organization as the link with the OM, and to keep up the false appearance of everything looking legit when they are seen together or she has to contact him.

It always concerns me when a child has a intense dislike for an adult. I can't remember if you said that S8 knew there were inappropriate vibes between his mom and OM. Have you considered asking S8 about sitting down with you and Mom and let him tell her how he doesn't want to be around OM and want out of the organization? IDK if it would help, b/c she sounds determines to make S8 stay in the organization, regardless of how he feels. I'm a little surprises that you support her decision, however.

When my son was that age, he wanted to try different sports or kids activities, but then he wouldn't want to stick with it. I could understand you wanting to teach him to stick with what he starts, but in this case if he senses or has seen something inappropriate between OM and his mom......then it could really mess with him. KWIM?

In the relationship with you & W, can you tell any improvement in the interactions, the overall environment, anything? Are you still working as much as you were, or are you spending more time with the family?

[rminer]

I'm just going to start calling the "organization" by what it really is for a little more clarity. It is Cub Scouts. I originally avoided calling it that because I was trying to conceal my identity as much as possible in case my W ran across this forum, but there is more than enough information in these threads for her to figure things out now.

She seems to be in denial about S8's feelings toward OM, or else she doesn't care. Whether or not that's the case, I think she "uses" S8 in the organization as the link with the OM, and to keep up the false appearance of everything looking legit when they are seen together or she has to contact him.

I think it is denial more than anything and I do agree that she is using S8's involvement as a way to make her contact with the OM look legitimate. I do believe there is another factor playing in as well. She has been a stay at home mom for 24 years now, so being involved with Scouts gives her a sense of accomplishment and worth that she just can't get at home.

It always concerns me when a child has a intense dislike for an adult. I can't remember if you said that S8 knew there were inappropriate vibes between his mom and OM. Have you considered asking S8 about sitting down with you and Mom and let him tell her how he doesn't want to be around OM and want out of the organization? IDK if it would help, b/c she sounds determines to make S8 stay in the organization, regardless of how he feels.

S8 has not directly told me that he feels the R is wrong between my W and the OM, but he has told D21 and D18 a few things that indicate this. He does not show disrespect for any adult, except the OM, so I believe he senses something is wrong here. I have tried to get him to open up a few times, but he does not want to, so I have not pushed it. From what he has told me, he has told my W that he does not like the OM and want to quit because of him. I have proposed changing packs next year to S8, which he is wiling to do. Sitting down with her is an option I have considered, but haven't acted on. I wanted to approach her first.

I'm a little surprises that you support her decision, however.

Rereading what I wrote, I see that I left what I meant open to interpretation. I am supporting keeping him in Scouts. He likes it, he just doesn't like the OM. What I am pushing for is moving S8 to another pack away from the OM. I do not want him to stay where he is uncomfortable.

In the relationship with you & W, can you tell any improvement in the interactions, the overall environment, anything? Are you still working as much as you were, or are you spending more time with the family?

Yes. It is night and day compared to where we were on April 1 when you suggested I spend more time with her. This is what is confusing me that I mentioned in my last post.


Tension in the house has dropped dramatically, although D21 and D18 are still openly rebelling against her and D15 is still wanting to be with me as much as she can. We have had no arguments, disagreements are merely discussions.


She has not been out on one of her bar nights in over a month. She did go out last Friday, but she sent a text to me while I was at work telling me she was going to dinner and a movie, who she was going with (her two best friends) and that she would not be out late. She stuck to this, getting home at 12:30am. I verified what she told me as best I could - there were debit card charges at both places and the run time of the movie they saw would have put her home right about the time she arrived.


She has made no attempts to see the OM that I can tell. My W has not inexplicably gone out alone, let alone at times the OM would be home from work in over a month. The one time she did go out, she told me that she was meeting him to drop something off that was due to be turned in to the District Office the following day, which I know did have to be turned in. She was gone approximately one hour 20 minutes, including drive time and a stop at the grocery store.


My W and I have gone out a total of three times, with a fourth scheduled for tonight. We have done even more with D15 and S8 as a family. She is now assuming I will be doing things with them if she tells me what is happening. An example is on Wednesday I asked her what her plans were for the day. She told me that she was thinking of going to the park with the kids to walk later in the afternoon. I finished my chores about 2pm and came inside. After I cleaned up, she asked when I would be ready to go. She didn't ask if I wanted to, she assumed I was. Later, when it was time to take S8 to Karate, she was outside waiting by the car with S8 and D15 when I was ready to leave. Wednesday is my day to take S8 and normally D15 comes along to get out of the house while my W stays home. She went this time for no other reason than to go.


My W has also started doing more and more of the "wifely" things that she used to do, including my laundry. She is also doing more of the small thoughtful things too. On that same Wednesday we hadn't eaten since lunch when we left for Karate, so she grabbed some granola bars for everyone. The kids got the regular ones and she brought two of the "good" ones that she keeps hidden for herself for the two of us.


That same day she was flirting with me as well. Nothing much - random pokes in the shoulder, a play slap when I made a joke at her expense, a shoulder bump or two, an inside joke. She has flirted a few other times as well.


She is making plans for the future with me too. Aside from the family vacation she is planning for this summer and the semi-serious talks we have had about moving, she is planning events for us this summer and later in the year. School is out for D18 and my W asked her to arrange her work schedule so that my W's van would be available for us to use on my normal days off in case we wanted to use it to go somewhere (D18 uses my W's vehicle to got to work).


My W has also started talking about us in the past to the kids, telling them stories of how I used to try to get her attention, things we would do, etc. She has been acknowledging our M verbally as well and put the Anniversary and Mother's Day cards I gave her on display on her dresser as she normally does. If you remember, the birthday card I gave her in December, the one that I feel was the best one I ever wrote to her, went straight in to her dresser drawer never to be seen again.


She has also started taking more of a personal interest in me, asking how my day was, how work is going, etc.


These changes really started happening faster after the temp check that I mentioned and again after our anniversary.


There are times though that she still seems a little bit distant.


An odd thing did happen last night though. I was scooting past my W's enabling friend to get to my seat in an auditorium yesterday evening, and she took my hand as I was passing and asked how I was doing. It wasn't the normal "hey, how are you," it was more of a soft, concerned/sympathetic ask. We normally don't make any contact when we greet each other and certainly haven't for years, so this caught my attention.


With all of this being said and as good as most of it sounds, I know she is still contacting the OM. I haven't read her texts, so all of it could be business related, but I'm going on the assumption that is is not. She is still not wearing her wedding rings and is still sleeping on the couch. There have been no ILYs, hugs, kisses or prolonged physical contact other than when I do the "Alpha" contact things.


This is why I am confused. I don't know if these changes are real or if she is acting this way to keep me around. Everything she is doing, especially when I look at them together, seem very genuine. If it were one or two things here and there I could easily write them off as an act, but combining them makes me wonder if they are actual changes and we are making progress. At the same time, I know I should believe nothing she says and 50% of what she does, so that is how I am approaching it and I am keeping my guard up. She could also know that I know about the A and this is her new approach at covering it up.


I am feeling that I might want to tell her I know about the A in the next few weeks though. I don't know how much more "progress" we can make until I do. My reservation on this is have I done enough work and is there anything else I can do to make to go more smoothly.

[rminer]

Forgot to answer one of your questions.


I have all but stopped working on the house outside of normal chores and routine maintenance. Nothing major is been done on it for over a month.

[joejoe1]

Rminer,

I agree you will not be able to make progress or move forward until you reveal that you know.

Your W seems to be showing good signs, but she can't keep living in the dark.

You are a great, husband, father, and man. She would be a fool to lose you.

As you mentioned, when you show her the alpha, you the contact you want. It won't be no different, when she is placed in a position to choose you over OM.

Keep uonthe great work.

[rminer]

Thanks joejoe

[rminer]

The following evening my W and I went to a concert in a very small venue - approximately 200 people - and then to dinner. I t was probably the best time we heve had together so far. On the way out, I put my hand behind me to lead through the crowd and she took it voluntarily, which is something new. On the way in I gave her a compliment on her appearance and the new dress she bought for the occasion. Her response was not "thank you" or something similar. It was more like she didn't think I was being scincere or was just being nice. Most of the time I give her a compliment this is how she reacts now.

A few days later she asked me if I would go to the store with her to look for some tile. The youngest two kids ended up going too and on the way, my W reached over, took my hand and held it all of the way to the store. On the way home, I reached over and took hers. We ended up for getting something, so we had to run back out and on the way, she again took my hand. This time, out of habit, I kissed it and she smiled. This is something I have always done 90% of the time she holds my hand. On the way back I took hers again. It was kind of comical in a way - each exchanging gestures - but she seemed to like it. We have been in the car together multiple times since and I was waiting to see if she would do it again, but she hasn't. Three days ago we were in the car again, so I took the initiative to take her hand thinking maybe she was waiting for me. I again got a smile.

There have been a few other behavioral changes as well. One time she came home to find me doing my laundry and she apologized for not getting to it. A few days ago I was putting some of my clothes in the wash again. She noticed and insisted that she do it instead of me. I don't mean "Hey, I'll do that for you," I mean she all but pushed me out of the way. I didn't say anything about her not doing it or make a big deal of it either time. I simply started doing it and these are the reactions I received.

She has told me she likes me twice in one form or another. Once I made a joke and she replied "just when I started liking you again" and once I took a drink of her beverage without asking and she said "you're lucky I like you" like she used to do. May not mean anything, but it is new.

My W also seems concerned about how I feel about her too. I proposed an idea that would affect both of us and she shot it down. I wasn't happy about it, but I understood and didn't make a big deal of it. She was concerned that I thought she was being the bad guy and started backtracking on her decision. I told her it was fine and let it go. Two nights ago I came home to find something new in the house, asked where it came from and got a generic answer. Yesterday she felt the need to text me and ask if I was upset about the purchase and explain to me where it came from.

We have a wedding coming up this weekend and she asked me to go clothes shopping with her. While we were out she was asking my opinion on the dresses she was trying on, which I would expect, and she took my advice. The following day she started texting me pictures of the shoes she was looking at asking my opinion, which is something she would normally reserve for our daughters. She never asks my opinion on shoes.

My W also made the comment as we were passing a jewelry counter that she wishes that we should have gotten platinum wedding bands since she likes silver better. She still doesn't wear her wedding rings. Doesn't mean a whole lot, but i found it interesting that she would say it...

She is also being more transparent about things, telling me when she goes out, who she is with and when she will be home. Last week she told me that an ex-boyfriend from high school contacted her (I knew him too, but we were just acquaintances) and they talked for awhile. She also told me the things he was saying to her. I told her that he was hitting on her and she responded that "he was just being sweet and besides, he's married." I again said that he was witting on her, then slipped and said "people don't respect wedding rings anymore." Dead silence. Oops.