Affair, no feelings...is there hope? IV

[44tries]

If you give in too quickly, you'll likely experience a period of her showing better behavior, followed by a quick return of the old disrespect and self-entitlement attitude. So, you must be firm. If your WW says she is truly sorry and wants to work on the MR, let her know that you need to see some things change, to feel confident about her decision. If she starts telling you what you need to do for her.......just let her have her say. Depending if her attitude is okay. If she says she doesn't know what she wants, then tell her you know what you don't want, and proceed to tell her the following. At whatever point, the following boundaries need to be stated......if you mean it. If you won't stick to your resolve......then what's the point, right? She cannot think she can return to the same old behaviors and keep the M.

So, what exactly do you mean by give in too quickly? This is something I am confused on, because I have read Zeus' post about not taking them back too easily like ten times. I don't want to do it, despite the temptation to finally feel some relief and closeness. But if we have the conversation, and she agrees to commit, is that "giving in"? I mean I'm essentially telling her I will take her back, under "all in" conditions. I understand she will still have bad habits and I cannot soften on letting her get away with any of them. I just want to make sure I'm clear on what not "giving in too quickly" means.

* "In order for the MR to go forward, there are some behavior patterns that must change".

* "I will not stay in a MR where I am disrespected in any fashion".
"I will no longer tolerate your self-entitled attitude. I will not be treated as if I owe my services to you, expected to wait on you hand & foot, or give accountability. I will not tolerate you treating me as if you are my mother, my commanding officer, or my employer. Are we clear, so far? If you aren't willing to change this behavior, then we need to end the M, right now".

Side Note: If she is not willing to do this much, then there is no point in trying to discuss anything else. There is no point in discussing the affair, or bringing this & that up, b/c it all boils down to one word........disrespect. So, if she starts talking about how you made her feel, yada, yada.......just look firmly at her and say, "This is about what you are willing to do to save our M. If you can't treat me respectfully, then we need to get a divorce, because I will not continue tolerating it".

* "I will not stay in a MR with private and/or inappropriate friendships and/or affair". "You have betrayed my trust, and you brought OM into our M. We either go forward committed to being faithful, or we end the M now. If there is to be a M, then there will be no more private/secret texting. If you are not willing to be transparent in our M, then say so now".

Side Note: If she tries to turn this around and bring up how you've been so secretive lately, just hold up your hand in the stop position, and say, "That was after learning of your affair. You've talked a lot about your feelings, and I had hoped for once you would consider my feelings. I did nothing that was inappropriate or disloyal. I have never had an inappropriate relationship with another woman. I have remained faithful and loyal to you, although you made it clear that you did not want to have sex with me". If she accuses you of wanting to punish her, just say "No".

The statements in bold are boundaries. However, don't mention them being boundaries to her. You are simply stating what you will not tolerate in your life. That is what boundaries do. They protect us. That is why countries have boundaries; our property has boundaries; and we have personal boundaries for how others treat us. We don't allow people to just treat us any old way. Right? We either push back, or we remove ourselves from the situation.......but we don't simply ignore it or comply.

For now, these two boundaries are the most important. I am going to send this on to you, b/c I don't want to accidentally lose it. If you have questions, please ask.

These are perfect. They are exactly what the main two requirements should be (I know, I won't tell her they are "requirements" ). And your notes about what to do with her comebacks are also so helpful. I have a feeling, if she doesn't want to lose me, she is going to agree to anything but it will be hard to know how much of it is her desperation in the moment. But if she agrees, no matter the motivation, I then have the foundation to reference and can be firm about the boundaries never getting crossed.

WW: "I won't let you control me"!
You: "I am telling you what I will no longer tolerate, if we are going to stay M. You are free to decide if you will cooperate or not. If you have no intentions to show respect, that's your choice, but I have choices also. I will choose to get a divorce, rather than tolerate further disrespect".
WW: "Well, this is the way I am, so if you don't like it, then you are welcome to leave".
You: "Then I have my answer, and I see no point of continuing this discussion any longer".
WW: "Oh, that's typical. If you don't like something.......just walk away. Go into your bedroom and shut the door.
You: "I wanted an answer and you gave me one, so that's fine".
WW: "What about what I want, huh? What about my feelings? You didn't even care that I was stuck over there by myself. You waited till I was alone, and then you chose to lash out and punish me. You don't know what that did to me! You didn't even care enough to to just respond to my text".
You: "Look, we both are at a crossroads. I needed time to get my head clear. Before getting into saying things we might both regret latter, the first decision to make is whether or not we save our MR or get a divorce. I am telling you what I cannot tolerate any longer. You have the same right to say whatever you want. However, if you know at this moment you will refuse to change your behavior toward me........then I think it is pointless to continue".

WOW, this is so, so accurate! It sounds exactly like my W! Such helpful responses. She will either surrender when I try to disarm her self-absorbed defense/control weapons, or she won't and I walk. This is a similar feeling I had during the confrontation conversation. When she started with the question game and testing how far she could push, how much I knew, if she could get away with it...in the moment she knew she had "lost" and stopped struggling, the feeling I had was something I haven't felt in so long. Like she was finally not trying to arm wrestle me. I was finally in the driver's seat. I think it will be a long time before she is comfortable with me driving and stops trying to fight back, if we get there at all. Now I will make it clear that if she can't let go of that stubbornness, she loses me.

So, she will either give you a straight answer, or she try to wiggle out and find an alternative solution.

WW: "I couldn't wait to get back home and be with you. I wanted us to make love and tell you how sorry I was for everything. I dreamed of us taking a little trip......like a second honeymoon, to start over. Then I get here and find you cold and hateful, yelling ultimatums at me, before I can even tell you how I feel. But.....I guess my feelings aren't important to you. Maybe you are right. Maybe we should just get a divorce".

See how that was worked by your fake W (me) in her last response? ^^^^^^^. It is to make you regret what you've just told her and how you handled yourself. She is giving you a picture of something beautiful and than you got into a hurry and messed up everything. It's designed to put you into pursuit mode. Don't do it. Remain calm, whatever happens.

I see it!! So clearly. It will take strength, but I can do it. Now that I understand the full picture. It's amazing to realize my own cluelessness. She got so good at knowing how to make me fold every time.

Good grief, man! You aren't getting ready for your first date, your WW is coming home.

Some people may see this and think you have many lovely attributes, but I don't. I see a H with a lot of NGS.

O, I know. Don't worry. That's why I asked. I know she cares a lot about this kind of stuff, but I also know I am way too eager to comply. I'll make the house clean, but "lived in". I won't wash the cars.

Follow through with basically what I sent in the previous post. If you think I was too shaped tongued in places, you can bring it to my attention, or give a better example. I realize it sounds a lot more like ultimatums than boundaries. I just think you need to be that firm and not play pattiecake with her.

No, I think your examples were perfect. Besides, realistically my delivery will probably be a little less sharp than yours, by default. Me trying to live up to your sharpness probably ends up being just right .

The very best scenario would be if she came home and humbly apologized and ask for your forgiveness, and tell you she wanted to work together in having a good M. If (and that is a big IF) this should be the case, then you can ease into the same conversation, but maybe say it more tenderly. Make sense? I don't think it will take long before you'll know how sincere she is.

Yes, this makes sense. I agree.

Since she's in the military, what kind of trip could she plan?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this? Because of our location, there are tons of places we can travel to and it's a pretty high priority while we're here. She isn't on a deployment, so she can take leave and go on vacation, if that answers your question.

I will role play with you (me being the WW or the H, it doesn't matter). Tell me what role you want. I had written out some scenarios in the post I lost, which is probably for the best.....since I they may have sound a bit sharp.

Hmm...I guess I will be her, since I know her and can try to think up the exact kinds of things she is likely to say and you can show me how to respond Sorry about the lost post.

MWD says in her DR book that if you give an ultimatum, be prepared to back it up. I say the same goes for boundaries. (You can't always just walk away and think the person will respect you for it). The differences in the two is the ultimatums don't give much of a choice. The recepient hears, "Do it my way, or else". Some people don't believe boundaries should have consequences. Well, I do. What good are they if they are dishonored and there are no consequences?

Here is how I see it. You tell her what you will not tolerate. Now, she can do whatever she chooses. Of she chooses not to honor your boundary, then some action should take place as a response. Since it was your boundary, you are the one to choose the action. You said you would not tolerate disrespect any longer. So, the ball in your court. What will you do? If you've already announced what you'd do.......then you best do it. If you didn't say what you'd do......you still need to show action.

To me, ultimatums are saying do it my way or else. So, that may seem how my examples sounded to you, IDK. At this point......and how she pushed this to a head like a nasty pimple.....I think you should be firm in your delivery. If you want to call it an ultimatum or whatever.......it doesn't really matter. I think it will have about the same effect. All I ask is that you don't walk around in your house crowing about this & that being your boundaries. As long as you know what they are, that's the important part. If you use these two examples I sent previously, then you'll need to be ready to follow through if she won't agree to cooperate in showing you respect.

In many ways, this is another confrontation. Only this time, you are hitting hard, and there is just one answer you want to hear. Which is, "I am willing to cooperate and work to save our M". I will be surprised if it's that easy. I don't think she'll be that straight forward about it. Giving her a chance to saying something first, will give you a better idea of what she's thinking. Her waywardness is still there, I'm pretty sure.

I understand. It doesn't have to be something I state over and over, I just need to clear she knows/agrees and then be able and willing to back it up. I too would be surprised if it's that easy, I am trying not to get my hopes up. But that's a little bit where my struggle with the ultimatums comes in. If I give an ultimatum to a wayward wife, that can't end well right? I will be walking away. I'm still struggling with how to have patience and know she can't be fixed overnight, but also be firm about my boundaries and ready to walk. I think the key will be in her willingness to at least agree and try, and get smacked down when she gets out of line. But if she is still wayward and not ready to do that...I leave?

It sort of feels like I am building up the ability to push her farther and farther. Before, I gave no push back and that was the problem. Now, I already feel I have a lot more power to give pushes because I have been practicing and moving that line back, inch by inch, the same way it got to be so bad--slowly. I am seeing her need to change her technique, and gaining more confidence she won't just run away if I rock the boat. The dynamic is changing (and is certainly helped by the position she put herself in by cheating). But I think it takes time and there is still a breaking point; I can't rush in and hit her over the head too soon. I don't know if I'm making any sense...

I will be glad to help. I don't think it's necessary to present it at the same time you tell her the first two boundaries. Once that conversation dies down, and if it seems to go well and she's showing positive signs of cooperating, then you might suggest that each of you make separate lists of what you need in the M, which the other spouse can provide.

That sounds like a good idea. I think from the get-go, the main thing I "need" is respect, and that is covered by the first boundary. The second would probably be commitment, which is sort of built into the conversation about if she agrees to go all in on working on the MR (and not have any outside inappropriate relationships).

Also, she isn't coming back until Saturday now--the replacement's flight got cancelled. But, it will give me more time to prepare