Advice on my Scenario Pt. 6 - Becoming a Warrior

[SteveLW]

OK, it is different if you don't want it. But your "there is no hope of it ever happening" is just not true. I know you are at a low point, but read sandi's rules again. I believe #37 is NEVER GIVE UP!

[OrangeK]

Its all i can do.
Ive followed your sitch closely too 44. You have patience of a zen master.

[OrangeK]

OK, it is different if you don't want it. But your "there is no hope of it ever happening" is just not true. I know you are at a low point, but read sandi's rules again. I believe #37 is NEVER GIVE UP!

I do want it, but not what I would truly get. I would get my old R back, which if you had asked me weeks ago, i would have said thats what i wanted, but i respect myself more than that now to go back to the same old.
I would entertain the idea of Recon under very certain circumstances, but if you know how damaged my WW likely is, its just not going to happen that way.
Who knows, maybe in 4 years ill be on here like ItHurts, not holding my breath tho.

[OrangeK]

Still feeling very against Divorce, but it seems the right path.
I never wanted to divorce, i feel like we never even got a chance to work on our relationship. How the hell can i go all the way through a divorce with literally no discussions, communications or ability to even compromise?
We never had any sort of productive discussion to save our marriage. She didn't want anything to do with it talking about it (now after months on DB Forum i know why)
this is all so confusing. I haven't had a chance to even discuss an iota of divorce, our opinions on it and everything with WW.

I still can't wrap my head around why if she wanted to be with OM, and not me, she would Deny the Affair, even when she knew i was fully aware of it, but yet still tell me she wants a divorce but take no steps to initiate it and wait till last min with everything the court has required us to do so far? Also, why extend the TRO?
I need help trying to understand her motives and goals here. Nothing is logical, nothing makes sense, i cant even figure out if things all went exactly as she may have anted them to, what would have happened?
I know she was still adamant on hiding the affair when I found out, and continued to lie about it. That seems like the old "keep me as plan B" scenario.
I know she would have wanted a separation eventually as she had asked for that prior to BD.

lots of questions rolling through my head today, thankfully they don't seem to effect me emotionally as much as they used to but the questions themselves are still there.
Still getting random small flares of emotion, jealousy and missing what we had from time to time, but not nearly as frequent or powerful.

[OrangeK]

Relevant quote from MTB's thread.

My struggle has been between withdrawing my D proceedings, which at this point i feel will look like pursuit / weakness / attempt at control vs. letting it move forward which could be a mistake or too early or just simply the wrong coarse of action for me and S3.

[SteveLW]

Wow OK, this last post makes me wonder if you even listen to what we type out for you.

"I still can't wrap my head around why if she wanted to be with OM, and not me, she would Deny the Affair, even when she knew i was fully aware of it, but yet still tell me she wants a divorce but take no steps to initiate it and wait till last min with everything the court has required us to do so far? Also, why extend the TRO?
I need help trying to understand her motives and goals here. Nothing is logical, nothing makes sense, i cant even figure out if things all went exactly as she may have anted them to, what would have happened?
I know she was still adamant on hiding the affair when I found out, and continued to lie about it. That seems like the old "keep me as plan B" scenario.
I know she would have wanted a separation eventually as she had asked for that prior to BD."

The basis of your problem is right here. Trying to understand a WW. You will drive yourself crazy like that. They do not do anything that makes sense. Look at my timeline:

12/23/17 BD I confront on her EA, she counters with she doesn't want to be married anymore. She wants to get a job, get an apartment and get a divorce.

For next 2 days she is very attentive and affectionate.

12/26/17 I finally find DBing, tell her that I want to save our marriage but can't do that without her buy in so I am letting go. Start working on detachment, etc. She immediately begins to hedge, saying things like "I don't know what I want, I was hoping after the holidays my thinking would change."

Two weeks of family functions for holidays, being in limbo, including R discussions most started by me.

1/5/2018 She sends nude photos (second set, first set prior to BD) to EA OM #1. (I find out about this later.)

1/19/2018 I tell her that I will not tolerate her being involved with another man even in just an EA. Either she is all in to fixing the MR, agree to full transparency, and agree to MC as well as other work on the MR, or she gets out. She says ok, she'll work on her resume.

1/20/2018 After spending all day working on her resume and looking at job listings (I remain detached through all of this) she comes to me that evening in tears telling me she things D is wrong, that God will not be happy with it, and that she wants to want to stay in the MR.

1/24/2018 I discover she has a full, paid for, complete with picture (so that anyone that knows us could see it is her) profile on an online dating site. I go home and confront telling her firmly, with minimal anger, that if she has a shred of respect for me or cares at all about her daughter, she will take the profile down. She gets very submissive in light of my alpha males display and agrees. Profile disappears over night.

1/27/2018 When invited by another couple at church she agrees to attend a church sponsored marriage retreat in 3 weeks.

2/1/2018 She agrees, at the suggestion of my MC, to attend the first MC session so that if she ever does decide to engage in MC with this counselor she won't feel ganged up on.

2/7/2018 I confront her about what I think is EA OM#2 messages and her excessive time on an online karaoke app. She immediately starts saying she wants to work on us, that OM#2 is just a friend (information that turns out to be true) and that she agreed to MC and the marriage retreat as well as has been reading material about remaining in the MR.

2/10/2018 In light of her still being secretive with her phone despite being willing to hand it over to me at anytime, I finally take her up on the offer to examine it. (She doesn't know but by snooping on her PC I can tell through her Google account activity that she is installing and uninstalling apps to hide her messaging and other things from me.) I install apps, and begin to have her log into them. I find messages from OM#2 that are very sexual (including the fact he sent a Richard pic to her), that she had been in contact in EA partner from 2005. And that she had been sending messages to guys through her online dating app (even though the profile was private). Turns out OM#2 is just a pot-mouthed idiot and there was nothing reciprocated (I can tell from the chat logs), that my mentioning EAP from 2005 made her look him up and they exchanged pleasantries, and that none of the 20 and 30 year-olds she contact on the dating app responded, and that since she paid for a month of it she still had an active account (she didn't renew).

2/12/2018 When I bring up the contacting guys on the dating app thing again she admits that "she has no idea what she is doing!"

2/17/2018 At lunch during a break at the MR, she makes an offhanded comment about me meeting girls online. To which I just laugh off. She then says it would be ok with her if I did. Which launches us into a huge R discussion where it appears that her rebellious side is making another appearance. After this discussion we go back to the retreat and she becomes very affectionate. We have a good evening going to dinner, where it appears she is trying to apply the things she learned at the retreat. On the way home the next day we have a very positive discussion about the R where she admits she just needs to get her head and heart right.

As you can see, so many up and downs, and contradictory things. Since that day at lunch in February, she has been exemplary in her commitment to work on the MR. She has stopped her secretive phone usage, is very open with her phone now, and other than a hiccup a couple of weeks ago where I put too much pressure on her in the affection and sex department, has really done a big 180. She is starting to trust that the positive changes I've made are for real and permanent, which seems to be helping with her coming back to the MR.

Granted, is could be she is ready to drop bomb #2 at any moment and then say "look, we tried" who knows, but all of her actions are showing that isn't going to happen.

"I know she would have wanted a separation eventually as she had asked for that prior to BD."

You've had multiple bomb days! What do yiou mean "she had asked for that prior to BD"? Asking for separation is a bomb! You've had multiple bomb days and that is a fact you need to face.

"lots of questions rolling through my head today, thankfully they don't seem to effect me emotionally as much as they used to but the questions themselves are still there.
Still getting random small flares of emotion, jealousy and missing what we had from time to time, but not nearly as frequent or powerful."

All typical. You are still in the grieving process over the loss of your MR. It is important for you to go through that OK. Your MR as it used to be is gone forever. Even if she comes back it will have to be a new MR. If she came back right now I am not sure you are emotionally mature enough or healed enough for that to happen. I think you'd want things to go back to pre-preBD and pretend like nothing happened. Which would set you up for another BD in a year or two.

Look, it is like I told mtb. I believe divorce is wrong, unless there is a PA. You are morally justified in getting a D. No one would blame you. However, you need to sort out your feelings before you do anything. I know you poo-pooed my suggestion of finding a good IC, but you really really need to consider it.

[OrangeK]

Wow OK, this last post makes me wonder if you even listen to what we type out for you.

I do quite attentively i assure you. If we could all adhere to Sandi's rules and the other prime tenants listed her without fault there wouldn't exactly be a need for a support forum would there be?. Steve, there's tough love, then there condensation. I respect you A LOT because of all the insight you have given me and others here. I can only assume you're trying to jar me by being blunt, and I don't mind that, this however smacks of condescension not tough love.
I am not offended as A.) i feel text is a very poor way to communication things like voice inflection and tone of voice, which change a sentence entirely. B.) I don't think you meant to come off that way and are trying to help.

The basis of your problem is right here. Trying to understand a WW. You will drive yourself crazy like that. They do not do anything that makes sense.

I acknowledged that this is driving me crazy, i know its counter productive. The point of the post was trying to reach out for techniques and assistance in getting over this compulsion i have to need to understand everything that has happened and predict what will happen.

As you can see, so many up and downs, and contradictory things. Since that day at lunch in February, she has been exemplary in her commitment to work on the MR. She has stopped her secretive phone usage, is very open with her phone now, and other than a hiccup a couple of weeks ago where I put too much pressure on her in the affection and sex department, has really done a big 180. She is starting to trust that the positive changes I've made are for real and permanent, which seems to be helping with her coming back to the MR.

Lots of back and forth and illogical things there Steve, One difference is your wife seems to have a few things mine does not.
Remorse, empathy, compassion, guilt, accountability, mine went right to EA/PA without even INDICATING anything was really wrong in the MR. totally different situations when you dissect it.

You've had multiple bomb days! What do yiou mean "she had asked for that prior to BD"? Asking for separation is a bomb! You've had multiple bomb days and that is a fact you need to face.

I realize that now. I guess i misused the term, for me BD is the day i found out about the affair, and she left our home. Up till that point i only had fleeting guesses we had "hit a little rut"
to say i was blindsided that night on Oct 14th is the understatement of the century.

All typical. You are still in the grieving process over the loss of your MR. It is important for you to go through that OK. Your MR as it used to be is gone forever. Even if she comes back it will have to be a new MR. If she came back right now I am not sure you are emotionally mature enough or healed enough for that to happen. I think you'd want things to go back to pre-preBD and pretend like nothing happened. Which would set you up for another BD in a year or two.

A few weeks ago, going back to Pre-BD R would have been EXACTLY what i wanted. I have learned so much since then.

Look, it is like I told mtb. I believe divorce is wrong, unless there is a PA. You are morally justified in getting a D. No one would blame you. However, you need to sort out your feelings before you do anything.

Well heres the problem, i filed well BEFORE i worked out my emotions about it. Now things are well in motion. As i said on MTB's post i am conflicted - Withdraw D proceedings and look weak / controlling /pursuing but be content with my situation as it is, or move forward as things stand and know that if we have a future it will be in a 2nd MR, not this one.
She did more than a PA, it STILL IS a full blown EA/PA which includes my son spending time around OM since 4 months before i found out about the affair at all, and by your above logic, i should just power forward with D, which seems the more logical choice. Im still marred by the "what if shes just too scared and embarrassed / guilty feeling to come and actually talk to me about MR, so she is just embracing R with OM and hiding from me via TRO instead of facing the music".
That is the one thought slowing down my ability to be content with my decision to move forward with D. [/quote]

I know you poo-pooed my suggestion of finding a good IC, but you really really need to consider it.

Ok now i get to get snarky. Do YOU read what I post?
I already said in a previous post i had tried one IC, and am currently seeing a 2nd one. I just dont think its helping me, and I cannot afford to continue to do IC if i ever plan to get a new apartment or get ahead financially. It is simply an expense i cannot continue to incur.

[AnotherStander]

Past: All of the questions. they "Why's", "Does she feel bad, guilt, remorse, self-loathing?" "How could She's" "Did i EVER mean anything to her?" and "What was she thinking??" "how could she discard every item from our wedding and life together?" "why him over me" "WHY couldnt she have just talked to me instead of all the lying and cheating and pain" - Pretty straightforward stuff to work out. Knowing ill NEVER get answers is just the hard part. I know ill never gen answers or at least honest ones, unless she has a breakthrough. Just takes time to cope with these not ever being addressed i guess.

You will never get answers because there are none. Believe me, we ALL want answers and it's frustrating not to know. There are no answers because your W doesn't know why she is doing what she's doing. She is confused and in turmoil even though she probably doesn't show it. I remember everyone telling me this and I would say "but you don't see my W on a day-to-day basis, she is rock-solid, resolute and completely unemotional." It wasn't until some time later (a year maybe) that my ex told me she cried every day and constantly questioned everything she was doing. Outside she looked like the Rock of Gibraltar, inside she was a raging storm of emotions.

Here are some examples of what thoughts plague me.

One harsh life lesson I learned from BD is that the stuff I spend time worrying about never comes to pass, it is the stuff I never even think about that jumps up and bites me in the butt. For the longest time I was so worried about losing my job, but my marriage? Pfff nothing to worry about there! BD was a bolt out of the blue with zero warning and 6 years later I still have trouble wrapping my mind around the fact that life can change so quickly. Ironically I still have the same job though. So I get where you are coming from, we men, we embrace logic and understanding and we love to plan for every eventuality. But BD is a cold lesson in letting go of all of those things we want to hold onto.

I know these may sound like thoughts NOT from the mind of a warrior, and you would be right. It is understanding them, and overcoming them that is my warriors task.

The first part is absolutely untrue, the 2nd part is spot-on. What is true bravery? Is it rushing in where angels fear to tread? NO, bravery is being truly afraid and doing what needs to be done DESPITE your fears. Of course warriors have all those thoughts and fears and concerns and questions. What makes them warriors is that despite it all, they do what is right by their children, their family, their friends and (lastly) themselves.

[OrangeK]

Also, Steve, theres this.

It just feels like anyone who has made an semblance of forward progress with their MR has been DBing and separated / BD'ed for less time than I have already. I get the whole "Marathon not a sprint" thing, but my sitch has only gotten worse since time has passed.

WW started SEEKING affair in Jan of 2017 4 months after wedding, began seeing OM in April of 17', i found out in Oct of 17' which also included separation. Oct-Dec were all Anti-DB nightmare of emotional hell for me, then we hit late Jan for the TRO. That brings us to current.

Look at my timeline:

12/23/17 BD I confront on her EA, she counters with she doesn't want to be married anymore. She wants to get a job, get an apartment and get a divorce.

For next 2 days she is very attentive and affectionate.

12/26/17 I finally find DBing

My sitch was almost a year old when yours began, I had just only KNOWN about mine for 2 months in Dec of 2017. yet because your wife is a normal human being, as opposed to an emotionless, destructive force of nature, you have had the ability to have progress, ups and downs and expect reasonable results and reactions from someone who actually does have regrets and emotions.
Plus you are able to communicate.
True NC in my situation basically means "cut yer damn losses and move on entirely"
Which id love to do, but there's that whole "I loved this woman and have gotten precisely NO explanation of any kind from her to explain why my life was so effectively vaporized"
I wish i could simply labotomize her out of my mind forever, that would be easier.

So to give a short answer, yes, i am driving my self nuts trying to figure this out. I need help trying to figure out how to stop trying to figure her out. you know what i mean?

Like in a 12 step, I have admitted i have a problem, i get that. its the other 11 steps Steve. Read up on Love Bombing, she got me addicted, im trying to get unaddicted. Ive "been sober" (No Contact and DB) for 3 months now, doesnt mean i dont get cravings and temptations. I am only human.

[OrangeK]

You will never get answers because there are none. Believe me, we ALL want answers and it's frustrating not to know. There are no answers because your W doesn't know why she is doing what she's doing. She is confused and in turmoil even though she probably doesn't show it. I remember everyone telling me this and I would say "but you don't see my W on a day-to-day basis, she is rock-solid, resolute and completely unemotional." It wasn't until some time later (a year maybe) that my ex told me she cried every day and constantly questioned everything she was doing. Outside she looked like the Rock of Gibraltar, inside she was a raging storm of emotions.

This is hands down, bar-none one of the most helpful paragraphs that has been thrown my way on this website. Thank you. She literally said verbaitum, several times "You keep asking me questions i DONT HAVE ANSWERS TO, i told you I DONT KNOW" when i would ask if she had feelings for me anymore, if she loved OM, if she wanted divorce, etc. So this was huge to hear for me. Its been over a year for my WW, and i dont anticipate any admissions of guilt any time soon, but it doesnt mean it isnt happening.

The first part is absolutely untrue, the 2nd part is spot-on. What is true bravery? Is it rushing in where angels fear to tread? NO, bravery is being truly afraid and doing what needs to be done DESPITE your fears. Of course warriors have all those thoughts and fears and concerns and questions. What makes them warriors is that despite it all, they do what is right by their children, their family, their friends and (lastly) themselves.

Thank you. Again, this helped a lot to hear. Its true to, as a firefighter we often say "you must know fear to know bravery, all brave men are scared, it is action in the face of fear that makes bravery"
I should have never forgotten that.