[s]No[/s] affair, no feelings...is there hope? III

[SteveLW]

Artista, I hope you see this bat signal............

This is a tough one, but I do feel you would do well to reread the validation thread. I feel there were opportunities to validate her feelings and instead you were a little passive-aggressive. But then I am in no way an expert.

OMG! That is the last thing he needs to do is validate her feelings!

Maybe it's b/c you are a H with NGS, but please stop telling him to validate a wayward W that is manipulating him left & right.

Guilty as charged! Though after reading the book I would like to amend that charge to "H recovering from NGS!" Sorry, I still slip occasionally.

[44tries]

This is a tough one, but I do feel you would do well to reread the validation thread. I feel there were opportunities to validate her feelings and instead you were a little passive-aggressive. But then I am in no way an expert.

However, her anxiousness to contact you tells me that she will reach out again. I mean, she has to be thinking that there is no future with this 19 year-old so she is probably not quite ready to let you go so easily.

Thanks for your reply, Steve. So, I know what you mean about the validation. But Sandi and Artista have just reamed me for using validation that last time she brought up her feelings. I understand their point--her "feelings" are not real. They are just attempts to control and manipulate me. And even if they were, validation is attempting to "repair" things and there is no point in doing that right now. I really struggle with the concept, because as I've said before it feels like validation is always the minimum thing you should be doing. I think the main reason I agree with them that I shouldn't validate is because there is nothing real to validate. In this particular case, her "caring" if I make it home safe I think reads: I want to know how late you stayed out. Her being "upset" I won't answer her questions about flirting reads: I want constant reassurance that you aren't going to see anyone else because even if I don't want you, no one else can have you either. She is upset I am not bowing down to her demands for control. I think, anyway. Sandi, artista, etc can confirm if I am on the right path.

I know my responses were rather harsh (I wasn't trying to be passive aggressive, so maybe I didn't do a great job). But Sandi has been trying so hard to get me to push back against her control attempts and that is what I was trying to do. I am not supposed to allow her to constantly question my whereabouts and activities or ask I am flirting, dating, etc. Remember there is a major respect problem (read: lack there of).

You are very right though about her anxiousness. She has already sent another message, "Because clearly I am out of line." I will respond soon...still deciding what to say but thinking I will tell her yes she is out of line with her demanding questions. That is the whole point of this discussion and she is trying to turn into some generalized hullabaloo and threaten "full separation". I didn't realize we were only half separated until now?? I think every message she sends is just a more and more desperate attempt to get me to cave and beg her to not be "mad" anymore. She is getting scared that I really might not want to talk to her.

Here's the thing. Frankly, I think she is surprised by my reaction to BD. She is very surprised I am GALing, especially because it is a bit more difficult to do it here and I am forced to go hang out with foreign strangers all the time. I am an introvert, for the most part. It IS hard but I am doing it and having fun and it's good for me. But I think she is nervous. Also, if she were to kick me out or I were to leave, her life would become miserable, at least while she is here. That is just fact. She has no real friends (again, location), along with doing all housework and maintenance which she currently does so little of, she will have no one to hang out with or do anything fun. She wants to go to the beach and take trips all summer? If I am not there to join her, she does it alone (or realistically not at all).

I do not know the status of the A or OM. But of course she can't be so stupid to see it working. It certainly isn't going to provide her much fulfillment in the near term. She may have changed her method of contacting him, but she isn't "online" all the time like she used to be. She isn't staying up all night talking to him (she also has to share a room during her assignment and check in at 6 am, so part of this is hindered logistically). I am not getting my hopes up or really trying to analyze it. But the fact that she calls me all the time and wants me to be her "vent box" (her words) and sends me wall pages of texts about her day does sort of feel like doesn't have someone else to do this with...again it might mean nothing at all, I am not hanging anything on it. Bottom line is she "needs" me far more than she would ever want to admit and I am not unaware of that fact.

[44tries]

O great, Sandi is here! I did not read her responses before last post...reading now...

[sandi2]

Thanks, Steve, sorry if I came on too strong. Maybe I get too passionate about this stuff, at times. I just feel like the way 44 handles this window of time with his WW, could be critical to the confrontation.

[sandi2]

I know my responses were rather harsh (I wasn't trying to be passive aggressive, so maybe I didn't do a great job).

I don't think they were "harsh" at all. The WW needs for the H to be firm, decisive, and strong when she is pulling this kind of stuff. That is not what a nice guy wants to do. He wants to validate! Validating is right up his alley.

"Because clearly I am out of line." I will respond soon...

Can you not see how that is manipulative? Why do you feel you have to give her a response. Yesterday when your phone was out and she wasn't hearing from you......she was trying everything. When she ran out of manipulative things to say, then tried "I'm sorry".

I think every message she sends is just a more and more desperate attempt to get me to cave and beg her to not be "mad" anymore.

Was that the usual pattern in the R dynamics? You would beg her to not be mad? Then it put her up even higher on her throne of entitlement.

She is getting scared that I really might not want to talk to her.

So why do you want to rescue her? She's not scared you won't talk to her. She's scared she just might lose some control over you.......now that you seem to have something growing between your legs.

But I think she is nervous. Also, if she were to kick me out or I were to leave, her life would become miserable, at least while she is here.

Careful, Mr. Nice Guy. You are giving her a lot of credit for thinking logically.

I do not know the status of the A or OM. But of course she can't be so stupid to see it working. It certainly isn't going to provide her much fulfillment in the near term. She may have changed her method of contacting him, but she isn't "online" all the time like she used to be. She isn't staying up all night talking to him (she also has to share a room during her assignment and check in at 6 am, so part of this is hindered logistically). I am not getting my hopes up or really trying to analyze it.

Careful..........

But the fact that she calls me all the time and wants me to be her "vent box" (her words) and sends me wall pages of texts about her day does sort of feel like doesn't have someone else to do this with...again it might mean nothing at all, I am not hanging anything on it. Bottom line is she "needs" me far more than she would ever want to admit and I am not unaware of that fact.

You just said she was hindered logistically. So, be careful where this is taking you, 44.

Now about not knowing the status of the A or OM. How long has it been since they contacted each other......that you know or suspect? It hasn't been too long ago you caught her in her room in the very wee hours of the morning talking with, assumingly, OM......and she freaked. and then later, she was texting, while turning where you couldn't see........and wanting you to cater to her.

Anyway........don't cave to her, imagining she is thinking something or feeling a certain way. She is wayward, and I haven't met a newbie yet (with NGS) that didn't underestimate his WW's mindset and selfish intent. Don't reassure her......and don't try to rescue her. She needs to go through this experience. You may not get another opportunity quite this easy. This could be the beginning of turning this ship around.

[artista]

Did i miss something? Did you two decide that you were no longer separated? What's with planning a trip together this summer? What's with talking with her while you are on your drive? Why are you accommodating her? You are right. There are holes in your detachment... GAPING! It's a shame you are not using this time and space apart to your advantage... She still has control over you... And your last paragraph says just how much she owns you... There is nothing in that paragraph that played out to your benefit... She won... Saying that it doesn't mean you don't want contact at all played into her hands. And that's why she walked away from the convo first...

When she returns, she will be the same as she was before she left... And you will still be attached...

If you do this right, meaning NC and working on detachment while she is away, you could show yourself a brand new man by the time she returns... But that CANNOT, WILL NOT happen if you keep in contact with her...

Mis dos centavos...

--artista

[44tries]

I don't think they were "harsh" at all. The WW needs for the H to be firm, decisive, and strong when she is pulling this kind of stuff. That is not what a nice guy wants to do. He wants to validate! Validating is right up his alley.

I am happy to hear you thought I did well. I am not panicking about all her responses (thanks, detachment). But I will admit I was a little worried I hadn't done it right. You are spot on though, the fact she said "I'm sorry"...I literally said HA! when I read it. To answer your question, it has been a long time since I've heard an apology. It is SO obvious, all of her attempts. Now I just see desperation and immaturity. And she is starting to show her cards...but I will not underestimate. Yes, we nice guys do need to fight the validation urges when it is clearly not a situation of "true" feelings.

I agree with your previous post, I think I am getting her right where I want her. Internally, I am very close to that place too, where I just want to put that final nail in and tell her I know everything. The main problem is still the housing. You said I had mentioned I could go to a hotel...yes I can temporarily, but not indefinitely. If this can no longer be my home, it's a big deal. Not saying it can't happen but if I make that gamble and "lose", I will be living out of a suitcase somewhere. To your point about her paying the rent...technically the military pays the rent. I know that's her "job" but it's a bit different than a civilian situation. Part of that money is entitled to me--she gets more than she would on her own. By military law, the house is as much mine as it is hers. If she were to kick me out, it is my understanding that she would be on the hook for paying me a significant amount of money for my own housing while we are still married. The military is pretty good about protecting spouses because we do have to sacrifice a lot...something that is frustrating when she is entitled and it contributes to the world revolving around "her". Her career will always come first. Anyway, I digress...

"Because clearly I am out of line." I will respond soon...

Can you not see how that is manipulative? Why do you feel you have to give her a response. Yesterday when your phone was out and she wasn't hearing from you......she was trying everything. When she ran out of manipulative things to say, then tried "I'm sorry".

Yes, I see it. I guess I didn't have to respond. I didn't for a couple hours and she messaged again "okay have a good night" (I am getting pretty confident about not responding because she seems to not be able to handle it). But I did tell her it was her demanding questions that were out of line. She said "You have no idea how it made me feel." I know this is more manipulation, but I don't even know the heck she is saying. I said "how what made you feel?" She said "nothing doesn't matter." Okay, NOW i am not responding My days of going fishing are long over.

Was that the usual pattern in the R dynamics? You would beg her to not be mad? Then it put her up even higher on her throne of entitlement.

I was being a bit hyperbolic...but the pattern was definitely her getting "mad" no matter who was right or wrong and knowing I would "chase". I did NOT like her to be mad (NGS) and I would always want to keep talking trying to resolve things. It certainly contributes to the entire entitlement issue, nonetheless.

So why do you want to rescue her? She's not scared you won't talk to her. She's scared she just might lose some control over you.......now that you seem to have something growing between your legs.

I didn't say that I did...I don't think. You're right, ultimately it's about control. But if I won't talk to her, she doesn't have much control...that's all I meant.

Careful, Mr. Nice Guy. You are giving her a lot of credit for thinking logically.

Fair enough, good reminder.

Careful..........

Being careful

You just said she was hindered logistically. So, be careful where this is taking you, 44.

Now about not knowing the status of the A or OM. How long has it been since they contacted each other......that you know or suspect? It hasn't been too long ago you caught her in her room in the very wee hours of the morning talking with, assumingly, OM......and she freaked. and then later, she was texting, while turning where you couldn't see........and wanting you to cater to her.

Absolutely. It could totally be logistical. And "it" isn't even necessarily a thing. I have no clue how long it has been. I wouldn't bet a dime the answer isn't "5 minutes". I'm just saying the only gauge I have had (seeing her physically texting or being constantly online) is reading differently than before. Half of that (seeing physically) isn't currently in play. So with a half-blind gauge that could no longer even be useful (she could have gotten a whole separate account/app/phone for all I know)...I am certainly not implying or thinking it means anything at all.

Anyway........don't cave to her, imagining she is thinking something or feeling a certain way. She is wayward, and I haven't met a newbie yet (with NGS) that didn't underestimate his WW's mindset and selfish intent. Don't reassure her......and don't try to rescue her. She needs to go through this experience. You may not get another opportunity quite this easy. This could be the beginning of turning this ship around.

Wholeheartedly noted. I think it is impossible for me to truly grasp and not underestimate, so I am doing it by force. It feels like brainwashing myself to believe that 2+2=5 but I'm sticking to it. I will not jump in the water. I don't want to ruin this opportunity or momentum I have.

On the confrontation front, you said "if I don't feel ready" I can do radio silence. Do you think I could have the confrontation before she gets home? As in, it doesn't have to be in person? I know we agreed it shouldn't be over text and I stand by that, although I admit it would be easiest to control my responses that way. If I did it over the phone, and it would be just as effective, I think some of that control still applies. Worst case, I can always hang up if you know what I mean. There has been a lot of great discussion about how the confrontation should and shouldn't go and I think it's all gold. I want my plan to be rock solid, and ensure I don't make any mistakes. My main concerns are figuring out the logistical issues I discussed before, and being absolutely certain I have emotional composure and am prepared for all possible responses.

I know the road ahead will be brutally difficult no matter what happens. It is very sobering to read stories like Mowgli's (which I so appreciate!) and Steve's and internalize what the reality of recon looks like. Dealing with the mourning period over the loss of OM is not something I would have considered off the top of my head. My W needs to be willing to move mountains or I'm not interested. I am at the place where I know what I deserve and am prepared to walk away (emotionally, at least ) if she is not even close to being it. Doodler also brings painful reality into play...knowing there is so much risk it all happens again and again...heavy stuff.

[44tries]

Did i miss something? Did you two decide that you were no longer separated? What's with planning a trip together this summer? What's with talking with her while you are on your drive? Why are you accommodating her? You are right. There are holes in your detachment... GAPING! It's a shame you are not using this time and space apart to your advantage... She still has control over you... And your last paragraph says just how much she owns you... There is nothing in that paragraph that played out to your benefit... She won... Saying that it doesn't mean you don't want contact at all played into her hands. And that's why she walked away from the convo first...

When she returns, she will be the same as she was before she left... And you will still be attached...

If you do this right, meaning NC and working on detachment while she is away, you could show yourself a brand new man by the time she returns... But that CANNOT, WILL NOT happen if you keep in contact with her...

Mis dos centavos...

--artista

No, we didn't decide that we were no longer separated. Sandi has asked before about what our separation means exactly and I've told her the fact is we sleep in separate bedrooms. There are no other "rules" or discussions that have taken place. That is also why we are not NC, not even close. Planning a trip together is all her mumbo jumbo, I didn't entertain it.

If I reveal the A, demanding NC makes sense and I can see what you mean about it enabling me to be a "brand new man" (along with all the other work). I don't have a problem with NC, but without the A element being in play, there hasn't really been grounds for it.

Maybe the best option is to have the confrontation while she is away, implement NC/radio silence, and let her sit in it. While I work on this brand new man stuff for when she returns. This is the first time anyone has really said that absolutely cannot happen if we have any contact at all. Thank you for your input.

[artista]

The grounds for NC are that she BD on you... She doesn't want to be married to you... You are separated... You don't need to do your own BD to go dark while she is out of town... All you have to do is have the guts to say you could use some time and space... Abd since she is out of town, now is a perfect opportunity... Tada!

[sandi2]

If I reveal the A, demanding NC makes sense and I can see what you mean about it enabling me to be a "brand new man" (along with all the other work). I don't have a problem with NC, but without the A element being in play, there hasn't really been grounds for it.

I want to make sure we are on the same page. You don't demand NC from her. Okay? NC is an action that needs to come from you. You just stop contacting her (no initiating and no responding in this particular instance). And, if you do as Artista suggested, you would not engage with her at all while she is gone. I suggested telling her you were going radio silent so she would not have the military out looking for you, pretending she was scared something had happened to you.

I believe we need to think carefully about confrontation over the phone (texting). Let's talk it out and maybe Artista or others will voice their views on it. As of right now, I feel it would be better to take this time with complete NC, really work on your detachment, and be prepared when she gets back for a face to face. I'm concerned doing it through a text will appear cowardly to her.

Also, you said without the "A element", there really hasn't been grounds for it (NC). I don't know why you see it that way, when you made it clear to her that she had no authority to drill you with questions about GAL, and told her she was overbearing, etc. Even without an A being involved, you still have a wayward W. It wasn't an A that made her wayward. That's what some people don't understand, and it's what sets the wayward W apart from others, IMHO. It all started with her resentment, disrespect, selfishness, unrealistic expectations, self entitlement, manipulativeness, rebelliousness, etc. All her negative mental attitudes developed into this current mindset. An A is a form of rebelling against her H and the MR........but it isn't the only way to rebell.

This is an example of why I said we may need to talk it out futher, before you try to confront her over the phone.

You are getting stronger every day, and I do believe you could be a lot more stronger by the time she comes home, and she could see a brand new man standing before her, and standing up to her. Anyway, let's talk more about it. We can even role play, if you want to practice.