[s]No[/s] affair, no feelings...is there hope? III

[Mowgli]

44,

Read up on my sitch. I'll tell you this, though:

I made a TON of mistakes in the beginning. What happened was that I finally detached (check out the detaching thread) so much that I knew I deserved to be treated better, and that I was truly ready to walk.
That moment for me, compounded with the absolute confirmation of the A, let me know that I was going to be okay regardless of the outcome of our M.

Did we stay together? Yep!

Has it been smooth sailing? No.

It honestly would've been easier for me to have just left in the beginning. You have no idea how much mental strength and faith you need to possess to be there for a cheating spouse grieving the loss of her "relationship."

W relapsed about a month in. Had to deal with that, too. Almost exactly a year later, I discovered a developing EA with another guy living across the country. Initially that was the second shoe, but after going over my info again, I stuck it out. Tons of MC was truly our saving grace.

I wish it ended there. Last year W went in for a Physical, and found out she had contracted HPV. Found out she had lied to me about having an STD check. Initially she lied about condom use, but it came out, finally, just before a really tough MC session. That meant that I had HPV, too.

We have had lots of ups and downs. It has been really hard at times, and I won't tell you that it has been a walk in that park, because that would be a lie.

The truth is that, most times, reconciling is 10x tougher than splitting. This is why you need to take care of you first. That way, you are ready for what lies ahead, no matter which way it swings.

I stayed for my kids at first, but now that we are in a better place, I'm glad I made the decision I did.

[doodler]

Three thumbs up for what Mowgli said.

44tries,

The problem you face is that you're less than two years into your marriage. If you're wife is screwing around already, even if you reconcile this time, there will be another and another. Is that the life you want?

You're young, you don't have children and you don't have a decade invested in a cheater. It's as if the prison guard left the cell door open and you're sitting around wondering what's for dinner.

[SteveLW]

Three thumbs up for what Mowgli said.

44tries,

The problem you face is that you're less than two years into your marriage. If you're wife is screwing around already, even if you reconcile this time, there will be another and another. Is that the life you want?

You're young, you don't have children and you don't have a decade invested in a cheater. It's as if the prison guard left the cell door open and you're sitting around wondering what's for dinner.

This is a very pragmatic post, one that is difficult to disagree with. The problem is that the heart wants what it wants. As someone else said in another thread, the reason we LBSs take the blame so readily is we think that will save us. After all, we can fix us! And if our issues are the heart of the MR problems, then fixing us fixes the MR.

The problem is that sometimes the WAS is just flawed. Profoundly flawed, and being the perfect spouse won't fix it. 44, take what doodler says to heart. If you see the faintest possibility of this occurring in 5, 10, 15 years from now then run and don't look back. And don't think that kids will fix things, kids complicate matters. So use this time in limbo to really ask yourself if you are prepared for what is potentially to come.

[sandi2]

I am not disagreeing with Mowgli, however, I would like to copy some statements from his post, to respond to a few things, since it has come up again about revealing the A.

You can correct me if I'm wrong. Early in your first thread, you had several to voice their opinions about confronting your WW on EA. I think that is about the time I joined on the thread's topic. I remember telling you that simply confronting her, actually reveals to her that you are aware of the A, and she could declare she wanted a D, or ask you to leave, etc. So, I told you "if" you chose that route, you needed to be prepared to leave. If there is ever a time the H needs to show strength, it's when he confronts his WW about cheating. Since she is the employed spouse, and you are living with her in another country while she is deployed, it has you at a little disadvantage. However, you assured me that, if necessary, you could you get a hotel room and make arrangements to leave. So after discussing your sitch, you chose to wait about confronting her, until you felt stronger.

Revealing at the right time is so key. Revealing when he's truly ready to "drop the rope" will only help him in his sitch. Revealing at a time when he's feeling good about the work he's doing and knows he'll be okay either way is the absolute catalyst to either recon or walking your own path.

I agree with these statements 100%. The problem was, you were not ready to drop the rope.

He needs to continue to GAL and become a strong man again. When he's ready to walk, he walks and lets her sit in her mess.

Exactly! Unless, she can convince him that she will end contact as of right that minute, and no more hidden contacts with anyone else. If she is willing to do the necessary work to save the M........then I would think that's the goal here.

Revealing that he knew about the A after the fact is so, so weak.

I'm a little confused here. Revealing after the fact you become strong again, or after the A fizzles out? Maybe Mowgli will set me straight.

I was lucky. I suspected an A but didn't find out until I had already done a ton of work on me. Finding out allowed me to take the next step and declare my desire to walk away.

Oh, okay. Maybe he is saying that he was working on himself before he discovered his W was having an A.......and he was able to take the step in walking away. That makes sense.

I guess I should have said pursuit and pressure. You are right if done right it doesn't have to be control.

This ^^^^^^^was Steve's response about revealing the A could be seen as controlling & pursuit, which I think kicked off Mowgli's post.

Hummmm.......I don't remember considering just the confrontation as controlling. I seldom bring up the issue of control, b/c the WW could use that as her tool in every thing the H tried to say or do. I can't see it as actually controlling, when you just confront her. He's just telling her he knows about the A. I mean, the H can't fear confronting his W on any subject just b/c he (or she, or anyone else) would think it's controlling. When a WW is mistreating her H, he can't just lay down and roll over simply b/c he's a afraid it would be seen as controlling behavior to confront her. As Steve said, it's more about how it is handled.

Pursuit, IMHO, would be if the H started displaying all his wimpy emotions .....begging, etc. Another way, is if he started in telling her how he wanted to save the M..... and what all they would have to do.......before he even knows how she feels! Yes, I have to agree there, that many H's get in a big rush to tell their WW he knows all about her A and this is what she can do to continue the M. He's lost her before he ever finishes the sentence. Timing! Approaching her that he knows (why even ask her).......but he doesn't tell her how much he knows, or how he found out. He just stands there and waits for her to respond before he says another word.......unless he gives a boundary of not staying in an open MR. He does not tell her what she can do or what he wants......until way later, when he is convinced she is serious about doing the right thing. The only way he should even progress futher with saying anything more, is if she appears very remorseful and humbly asks for his forgiveness and tells him(in so many words) that she'll do whatever it takes to save the M. (BTW, this seldom is the case). It's still not the time for him to go into detail. She'll try to blame him, accuse him, etc. It's not even the time to get into a relationship talk. Having a R talk would really help her get the H distracted. If any of that old stuff starts with her, that's when I like to see the H actually turn around to pack his bags (without further discussion), leave the house, without telling her anything other than he knows about the A. Let her stew in her own sh't for a few days, weeks, whatever. She needs to worry, and to see how she's lost him and the MR. Speaking as a WW, I think it has much more bomb effectiveness. When she sees H not making any effort to contact her or go anywhere around her.......well, that leads into a longer post, doesn't it?

It's an interesting topic, Steve.

My thoughts so far are that I will tell her to get all of her things out of the master bedroom. She has no business coming in there anymore.

44, do you mean as an alternative to leaving the house? if you can't walk out and leave the house........don't even bother telling her she has no business in the MBR. She is paying the rent, so she can march in there any time she wants! This would only make you look weak, b/c it kind of puts the spotlight on the fact you are financially dependent on her. If anything, she could remind of you of that fact and say, "Whatcha gonna do 'bout it, buster"?

I think as long as it isn't a negotiation of any kind, and I stick to my guns and pull it off properly, it will be a statement of boundary and demand for respect. I will not be "asking" anything of her. The real issue is being able to pull it off properly. She will play every card in the deck and you nailed it with the snooping accusations. She will likely deny till she's blue, then turn it around to my snooping, and any other twisting she can manage. I need to be strong and prepared.

Good points. Just let me warn you, 44, b/c you are a talker and you get way too wordy with her. IMHO, the H has to be in control of that confrontation, or he loses. Simple as that. By "control", I don't mean he tries to force a confession or anything. Men get too hung up about wanting to hear the WW admit to the A. You already have evidence that she is in an inappropriate relationship with a 19 yr old boy, so don't go for the angle of having her admit anything, okay? The minute you do, that's when she takes control of things and turns it back on you by accusing you of snooping, etc. Keep her A in the spotlight at all times. This is not about what you've done....but what she has done! WW's are notorious for switching things around on the H. So, you've got to hit very hard, and show no mercy. I think she will aim at every weak spot she knows you have. I don't know if she'll do it immediately, or plot how she will manipulate you.....and then play her act of being hurt and how could you believe such a thing about her.....they were just close friends........yada, yada. Oh, and expect her to say how she won't ever be able to trust you again. This seems to be a favorite among WW's, when they get caught by the H. See how she turns it around and puts the spotlight on him? You cannot let her do it, and if she tries (and she will), you cannot "discuss" her accusations......b/c that will take you away from the issue at hand. This is not about what you did.....so do NOT start defending yourself. Don't try to justify anything. Stay on track. This is about her bringing a third party into the MR.

So I'm taking my time. But there's no denying it has to be part of the plan.

I should ask some questions like a LBH ask. Like, "How long are you talking about, when you say taking your time"?

[artista]

I make no secret that I believe keep knowledge about an A hidden is not the way to go... But I do agree that the LBS has to be willing to fully let go once he lets the cat out of the bag... But the sooner he can get to this place, the better his chances of impacting the state of his marriage...

I have read from a few Hs here that they wish they would have kicked their WWs out when they found out about their As... when Hoosjim finally took that step, his fell apart, like I suspected she would...

I am not saying your WW will do the same, but I do think that if you detach, let her go, move on, she will at some point regret how she has treated you...

You can't really work on your marriage while she is being phony with you... You can't get to piecing by building upon/covering up a lie that you are aware of... And I agree with sandi2... That whole thing with validating your selfish W was just awful to read... She is cheating on you... Has told you she doesn't want the marriage... But is hurt that you aren't thoughtful about HER? I don't know why you are even taking her calls...

Don't be surprised that when she returns home, she also returns to her crappy treatment of you... Nothing will have improved in your marriage... She is playing you to keep you under her thumb...

You should be using this gift of space to work on you.. GAL... DETACH... not entertaining her ideas about your R... you are wasting valuable time and space...

--artista

[44tries]

O boy so much discussion... thank you everyone! I have a lot of thoughts and will respond to different topics individually. First, I am going to update about last night and today because I hope to get input, especially from Sandi.

Last night, I went to a meetup. Just before I left, W called for her now daily phone chat. I told her I was on the way out the door but if she wanted to talk while I drove, that's fine. She did her usual venting about her work assignment (she is very frustrated about that), talked about summer plans and wanting to plan a trip together and some other things. I mostly let her talk and basically "uh-huh-ed". When I got to my destination, I told her I had to get off and goodbye.

She sent me some messages while I was at the meet up. "Please don't drink since you're driving. Be careful." Later, "Let me know when you leave and when you make it home safe?" I did not respond to any of these for a few hours. When I did, I said "Don't worry. Okay." (I know I probably shouldn't have agree to let her know I made it home).

Then she messaged me a bit later and asked if I was still out and how was my night going. This was around midnight. I told her "yes, it's fun." Then she asked if I was drinking and meeting new people. "No. Yes." THEN, she asked if I was flirting. Here we go again. I said "are you going to ask me that every time I go anywhere?" She said "maybe". I said, "Well it is not acceptable." "Yeah, why not?" "Because you do not have authority over me." "Wow. Okay." I did not respond the rest of the night. Did not let her know when I made it home, which wasn't until 2am and she was asleep anyway.

I woke up this morning to a message that said, "Also thanks for lying to me and not letting me know when you made it home." I did not respond. A couple hours later, another message: "You've really upset me." Almost an hour later, I replied "Look, I'm going to put this simply. All your questions are overbearing. You're going to have to try a different approach because this one is not going to work."

She says, "I won't be bothering you anymore." I don't respond. A half hour later, "Seems you don't see that I care. Seems you don't want me to give a f*ck. Seems you don't care how upset I am. Seems you want to go and do whatever you want. So it's granted. You are free to do what you want with no regard for me. So you have full separation and freedom." Again, I do not respond for quite some time because I had a picnic to go to and was busy getting ready.

Now, I did not realize my data plan had expired and needed to be repurchased. I left for the picnic intending to reply eventually (was really struggling with what my response should be). But, I could not reply or receive any further contact after I left the house. I went and enjoyed the picnic and didn't get home until 7 hours had passed from her last message. As I drove home, I had anxiety. I was mad at myself because I felt this meant there was a hole in my detachment.

As expected, my phone was flooded when I finally regained service. The first was a message she sent about two hours after her last one that said "I'm sorry." (did she realize she was being crazy?? I have no idea, not really sure what she was saying sorry for.) Then, another two hours, she had sent a message updating me about her work situation and that she would likely be home next weekend and was letting me know "in case she couldn't find a ride from the airport". another hour, she messages can I at least let her know I am getting her messages, they are saying they aren't delivered. Another hour, "also it's [dog's] birthday, please hug him for me and be nice to him today." Finally, yet another hour later and shortly before I was home, "44, why aren't you answering any of my calls or texts? You're really starting to worry me, please at least let me know that you're okay." I also had a message from her co-worker saying she couldn't get a hold of me and he was checking to see if I was okay.

SO, I finally responded and said "I'm sorry, I didn't have any service and didn't realize it. I am okay." She said thank you for letting me know you're okay. Then I said something brief about her work in response to her update. She said I was not obligated to talk to her now that she knew I was okay. I said I don't feel obligated. She said well read my message from earlier, referring to the original crazy person message. I said "yes I read it. I said you cannot drill me with questions. That does not mean I am demanding no contact at all." She said "yeah i'll just leave you alone." I said "okay, if that's what YOU want." Her: "Nope, but I'm going to do it for you." I have not responded. I don't really know where to go from here.

[SteveLW]

I guess I should have said pursuit and pressure. You are right if done right it doesn't have to be control.

This ^^^^^^^was Steve's response about revealing the A could be seen as controlling & pursuit, which I think kicked off Mowgli's post.

Hummmm.......I don't remember considering just the confrontation as controlling. I seldom bring up the issue of control, b/c the WW could use that as her tool in every thing the H tried to say or do. I can't see it as actually controlling, when you just confront her. He's just telling her he knows about the A. I mean, the H can't fear confronting his W on any subject just b/c he (or she, or anyone else) would think it's controlling. When a WW is mistreating her H, he can't just lay down and roll over simply b/c he's a afraid it would be seen as controlling behavior to confront her. As Steve said, it's more about how it is handled.

Pursuit, IMHO, would be if the H started displaying all his wimpy emotions .....begging, etc. Another way, is if he started in telling her how he wanted to save the M..... and what all they would have to do.......before he even knows how she feels! Yes, I have to agree there, that many H's get in a big rush to tell their WW he knows all about her A and this is what she can do to continue the M. He's lost her before he ever finishes the sentence. Timing! Approaching her that he knows (why even ask her).......but he doesn't tell her how much he knows, or how he found out. He just stands there and waits for her to respond before he says another word.......unless he gives a boundary of not staying in an open MR. He does not tell her what she can do or what he wants......until way later, when he is convinced she is serious about doing the right thing. The only way he should even progress futher with saying anything more, is if she appears very remorseful and humbly asks for his forgiveness and tells him(in so many words) that she'll do whatever it takes to save the M. (BTW, this seldom is the case). It's still not the time for him to go into detail. She'll try to blame him, accuse him, etc. It's not even the time to get into a relationship talk. Having a R talk would really help her get the H distracted. If any of that old stuff starts with her, that's when I like to see the H actually turn around to pack his bags (without further discussion), leave the house, without telling her anything other than he knows about the A. Let her stew in her own sh't for a few days, weeks, whatever. She needs to worry, and to see how she's lost him and the MR. Speaking as a WW, I think it has much more bomb effectiveness. When she sees H not making any effort to contact her or go anywhere around her.......well, that leads into a longer post, doesn't it?

It's an interesting topic, Steve.

Sandi your response is right on point. My point with confrontation related to control or pursuit or pressure was due to my experience.

In 2005 when I confronted my wife with on her EA, she immediately said she wanted to save our marriage. So confronting her again last Dec. I expected her to respond the same. When she immediately said she didn't want to be married anymore I was devastated and fell into the exact trap you describe.

My point to 44 is of he confronts he shouldn't expect her to be remorseful about the affair. If he does then that is where control pursuit pressure comes in. You nailed it on the head in your response. I was guilty of all three in my confrontation.

One other thing Mowgli said that is so true: if she is remorseful and wants to save the MR, watching her mourn the loss of OM is difficult!!! In 2005 it took 3 months before my wife was over losing OM. I fear that if he hadn't gone into self preservation mode for the sake of his MR and kids (I threatened to tell his wife) she would have relapsed in those first 3 months.

44 the choices here for her after you confront is to give up the MR or to want to save it but go through grieving of the loss of the OM. Neither is fun so brace yourself for it.

[SteveLW]

O boy so much discussion... thank you everyone! I have a lot of thoughts and will respond to different topics individually. First, I am going to update about last night and today because I hope to get input, especially from Sandi.

Last night, I went to a meetup. Just before I left, W called for her now daily phone chat. I told her I was on the way out the door but if she wanted to talk while I drove, that's fine. She did her usual venting about her work assignment (she is very frustrated about that), talked about summer plans and wanting to plan a trip together and some other things. I mostly let her talk and basically "uh-huh-ed". When I got to my destination, I told her I had to get off and goodbye.

She sent me some messages while I was at the meet up. "Please don't drink since you're driving. Be careful." Later, "Let me know when you leave and when you make it home safe?" I did not respond to any of these for a few hours. When I did, I said "Don't worry. Okay." (I know I probably shouldn't have agree to let her know I made it home).

Then she messaged me a bit later and asked if I was still out and how was my night going. This was around midnight. I told her "yes, it's fun." Then she asked if I was drinking and meeting new people. "No. Yes." THEN, she asked if I was flirting. Here we go again. I said "are you going to ask me that every time I go anywhere?" She said "maybe". I said, "Well it is not acceptable." "Yeah, why not?" "Because you do not have authority over me." "Wow. Okay." I did not respond the rest of the night. Did not let her know when I made it home, which wasn't until 2am and she was asleep anyway.

I woke up this morning to a message that said, "Also thanks for lying to me and not letting me know when you made it home." I did not respond. A couple hours later, another message: "You've really upset me." Almost an hour later, I replied "Look, I'm going to put this simply. All your questions are overbearing. You're going to have to try a different approach because this one is not going to work."

She says, "I won't be bothering you anymore." I don't respond. A half hour later, "Seems you don't see that I care. Seems you don't want me to give a f*ck. Seems you don't care how upset I am. Seems you want to go and do whatever you want. So it's granted. You are free to do what you want with no regard for me. So you have full separation and freedom." Again, I do not respond for quite some time because I had a picnic to go to and was busy getting ready.

Now, I did not realize my data plan had expired and needed to be repurchased. I left for the picnic intending to reply eventually (was really struggling with what my response should be). But, I could not reply or receive any further contact after I left the house. I went and enjoyed the picnic and didn't get home until 7 hours had passed from her last message. As I drove home, I had anxiety. I was mad at myself because I felt this meant there was a hole in my detachment.

As expected, my phone was flooded when I finally regained service. The first was a message she sent about two hours after her last one that said "I'm sorry." (did she realize she was being crazy?? I have no idea, not really sure what she was saying sorry for.) Then, another two hours, she had sent a message updating me about her work situation and that she would likely be home next weekend and was letting me know "in case she couldn't find a ride from the airport". another hour, she messages can I at least let her know I am getting her messages, they are saying they aren't delivered. Another hour, "also it's [dog's] birthday, please hug him for me and be nice to him today." Finally, yet another hour later and shortly before I was home, "44, why aren't you answering any of my calls or texts? You're really starting to worry me, please at least let me know that you're okay." I also had a message from her co-worker saying she couldn't get a hold of me and he was checking to see if I was okay.

SO, I finally responded and said "I'm sorry, I didn't have any service and didn't realize it. I am okay." She said thank you for letting me know you're okay. Then I said something brief about her work in response to her update. She said I was not obligated to talk to her now that she knew I was okay. I said I don't feel obligated. She said well read my message from earlier, referring to the original crazy person message. I said "yes I read it. I said you cannot drill me with questions. That does not mean I am demanding no contact at all." She said "yeah i'll just leave you alone." I said "okay, if that's what YOU want." Her: "Nope, but I'm going to do it for you." I have not responded. I don't really know where to go from here.

This is a tough one, but I do feel you would do well to reread the validation thread. I feel there were opportunities to validate her feelings and instead you were a little passive-aggressive. But then I am in no way an expert.

However, her anxiousness to contact you tells me that she will reach out again. I mean, she has to be thinking that there is no future with this 19 year-old so she is probably not quite ready to let you go so easily.

[sandi2]

She sent me some messages while I was at the meet up. "Please don't drink since you're driving. Be careful." Later, "Let me know when you leave and when you make it home safe?" I did not respond to any of these for a few hours. When I did, I said "Don't worry. Okay." (I know I probably shouldn't have agree to let her know I made it home).

She is pretending to care......but actually, she's trying to trick you into revealing who, what, where, and when you are out. "Please don't drink and drive". What a manipulator!

OMG, it is so obvious what she is doing! If it wasn't so immature and manipulative, it would be hilarious. She was eating out of your hand......I really hope you can see it.

Don't respond. She'll break the silence, don't worry. She even apologized when she didn't get an answer earlier. Doesn't that show you how she works? Let it go to voice mail. If you feel too weak, turn off the phone. This has been a really great break, if you don't scr@w it up.

BTW, you handled it great. I'm impressed. . Now, just stand firm and don't join her tag game. She can threaten separation all she dares, but the truth is she doesn't want separation. She gave herself away too much to not see that. When one little thing didn't give her the response she wanted, and immediately, she would come back with something else. How long has it been since you've heard her give an apology? Bet she thought she had finally pushed you too far. You are getting very, very close to having her right where you need her to confront about the A.

If you don't feel ready, then tell her you are going radio silence until she gets back home. Don't tell her anymore than that you have some serious thinking to do about the future. Just that you need to be left alone for a few days. Then, turn off your phone. (You don't have to keep it off round the clock, just for the sake of an emergency). Anyway, that's just my view. Maybe Artista will give you her opinion.

Here's the thing, 44. Speaking from her side of the fense, she needs to have some troubling thoughts of her own. She needs to realize she is not the only one in the M that could dish a few ultimatums. Right? She was so quick to tell you to consider yourself free and fully separated (gave herself away with that one.....b/c she just wants to be S sexually), and she behaves as if she never thinks you may dump her a$$. She needs to wonder what you are doing, what have you found out about her, etc.

Like I said, you handled it great. Be careful of your nice guy tendencies. If you aren't sure what to say, wait until you can post it on the board, if possible.

Oh, BTW.......whenever you should decide to bust her about the A, don't hint around about it.

[sandi2]

Artista, I hope you see this bat signal............

This is a tough one, but I do feel you would do well to reread the validation thread. I feel there were opportunities to validate her feelings and instead you were a little passive-aggressive. But then I am in no way an expert.

OMG! That is the last thing he needs to do is validate her feelings!

Maybe it's b/c you are a H with NGS, but please stop telling him to validate a wayward W that is manipulating him left & right.