[s]No[/s] affair, no feelings...is there hope? III

[SteveLW]

Soooo, the impossible of lightning striking a mud puddle, and the evolving over billions or years into a being like no other fleshly thing (think conscience, reason etc) happened more than once!?!?

That's the fundamentalist rendition of evolution, but yes. Of course, since Earth is only six thousand years old, there clearly wasn't enough time for evolution. I guess I'll have to rethink that.

You changed the subject AND got a personal jab in. Nicely done.

[SteveLW]

Anyway....back on topic. 44, going along with what sandi wrote, wives want their husbands to lead. When we detach, GAL and start leading my example they take notice no matter what they might be involved with at the time. Addressing her A will be seen as pursuit and control. At the proper time you will be able to address it prior to moving to R if that ends up being a possibility.

[Mowgli]

Anyway....back on topic. 44, going along with what sandi wrote, wives want their husbands to lead. When we detach, GAL and start leading my example they take notice no matter what they might be involved with at the time. Addressing her A will be seen as pursuit and control. At the proper time you will be able to address it prior to moving to R if that ends up being a possibility.

I'm failing to understand how revealing the A is seen as "controlling" on behalf of the LBS?

If he starts to add contingencies - "if you don't leave-then type stuff," or "I'm only interested in fixing things if...-, then yes, absolutely it's controlling! But if he reveals and walks out?

Revealing at the right time is so key. Revealing when he's truly ready to "drop the rope" will only help him in his sitch. Revealing at a time when he's feeling good about the work he's doing and knows he'll be okay either way is the absolute catalyst to either recon or walking your own path.

Lets get real, here: We're talking about a 19yo OM. There is no way in hell this pans out on her end.

He needs to continue to GAL and become a strong man again. When he's ready to walk, he walks and lets her sit in her mess.

Revealing that he knew about the A after the fact is so, so weak.

Revealing and then walking gives HIM BACK CONTROL OVER HIS LIFE. It give him a reason to fully detach, at least, that's how it was for me.

I was lucky. I suspected an A but didn't find out until I had already done a ton of work on me. Finding out allowed me to take the next step and declare my desire to walk away. I didn't "lose it;" I told her that I knew about OM, I knew where she had been and where she would be going the next day, and told her I'd be contacting a L in the morning, but until we figured everything out, I was happy with the current arrangement (living in separate rooms). She talked about how she didn't want this, and I left. I went and got some air and didn't come back for a good long while. When I got home, she tried to put it back on me and I was having none of it. I told her I wasn't happy, either, but I didn't go out one do that. She broke down then.

I had put her on such a pedestal for so long, it was only then that we regained any balance. We are still together and equal partners, but the difference is that I know how to stand up for myself now.

[SteveLW]

I'm failing to understand how revealing the A is seen as "controlling" on behalf of the LBS?

I guess I should have said pursuit and pressure. You are right if done right it doesn't have to be control.

The other danger is a lot of times the cheating spouse will focus on the method of discovery. sandi warns about this. 44 if you can stay strong in not revealing how you found out then you might want to consider confronting her when you are ready.

[44tries]

I tried to address these concerns in my thread, Help for the Newcomer LBH with a WW.
Anyway, it didn't take long for me to realize some of the advice being shared was not going to work on a wayward W.
Applying soft love was not going to sprout any respect in her heart.
Even if a woman just left b/c she could no longer tolerate living with her H, her entire attitude is different than that of a WW.

I understand the exact distinction you have used to separate WAW vs WW is rather unique to you, but I want to tell you that once you really get it, it's one of the most insightful things on the board. It is completely accurate. I think there are sooo many newcomer LBHs that do not get it. And it is so easy to fall into that trap of is my W a WAW that just became WW...is she really WW at all...etc etc. But when you use the simple distinction that is the core of your philosophy it all becomes so simple and there is no way to be confused. So I think your distinction is invaluable, it's just so hard to grasp at first for some reason--or at least it was for me until the lightbulb moment.

Not only do the majority of newcomer men have wayward W's, and the men tend to have NGS. I don't believe that is just a coincident. IRL, every WW I have met, usually has a nice guy H. The more you study it, the more it makes sense. But anyway, the H has a really difficult time applying tough love methods, b/c of his own psychological makeup. However, it was his passive, easy-going, "yes dear", subservient, undecivise, beta ways that lost respect of his W. She has turned into a disrespectful control freak or bully, or she's doing something that shows rebellion and disrespect..........while he just takes cover in his shell. This clearly makes matters worse.

Absolutely NO coincidence. I have done so much reading here and I can honestly say I am blown away. This is a systemic problem! I know it's hard and somewhat disillusioning to apply science to love, but the data is all there. This is why I subscribe wholeheartedly to your thoughts on the matter.

So here's the thing. I don't try to force anyone to take my advice, okay? All you have to do is tell me you had rather use a softer approach, and I will back away. If you feel that a particular piece of advice is too firm, then say so. This is your life, not mine.

It definitely pushes me out of my comfort zone, but that's the point! I want to do what works. If you feel that whatever level of firmness you suggest is optimal, then that's what I want to hear. It doesn't mean I will just follow you blindly, but I realize I am a first-quarter freshman and you are the professor.

In many cases like yours, the W places her H in the friend zone. She is not sexually attracted to him, but she wants his companionship/friendship. She usually controls the relationship without much effort, b/c her H thinks it's easier to just try and make her happy rather than stand up to her. B/c of his gentleness and desire for his M to last, he often has trouble seeing the extent of her manipulation. Perhaps this is denial on his part, in order to continue living with her, IDK.

I think my W was particularly cunning about the friend zone issue. She really got me at first, because in the beginning right after DB she wanted me to leave remember? This made me question if she was really trying to cake eat. But looking back, I think she knew all along I was not going anywhere and used it to make herself look innocent (of cake eating, that is). It's hard to think of it as such a calculated plan--and I think the reality is probably a little muddier--but I understand this is the mindset that I need to have because this is what reality boils down to.

Then perhaps you need to evaluate your situation and set new goals, based on the information you have.

I think this is what all my long-winded posting was trying to say

I agree with it. But take for example.......when you first read DR, maybe one of your goals was for you and W to share the same bed......or that she would be happier.......or she would talk more.......whatever. At that time, you had not even considered she might be wayward in her heart, much less in behavior, right? Now, you see that there are other things that must be achieved, like having her respect will lead to attraction, etc. Now, your eyes are being opened to just how manipulative she is, and it's upsetting for you. I think you feel a bit defeated and hopeless b/c you were wanting to see baby steps by this time. At the stage, baby steps don't come right away. And besides, you have not long ago even tried to flex your independent, manly muscles to GAL.

You described it perfectly. I'm shifting my view to see reality, but I think my eyes need to adjust and show me more than just a totally evil person. Obviously, you are not a totally evil person. WW does not equal sociopath. Sometimes it feels like that's what everyone is trying to tell me W is. And I would be running and not looking back if that were the case.

In the end, it is the bad dynamics at play, but they have instilled some very serious behavioral problems in her due to the total loss of respect. I am getting it. And you are right, I am still in such an early stage. I do not need to see a bunch of baby steps right away. I think I was just seeing a lot of ones I was looking for with my "old" goals, and getting confused because I knew they weren't really meaning anything positive. Hence, I felt directionless.

When she stops secretly contacting other men, it is a positive step. When she stops asking you to do this & that for her while she sits on her rear, and she waits on herself, it will be progress. When she stops acting like your mother, it will be progress. When she stops drilling you about every move you make, will be progress. Most of these will come in baby steps. They won't disappear and magically change overnight. This has been the behavior pattern for a long time, so whenever she slips or if she tests you.....then it's up to you to set her straight immediately, or she'll fall back into that old manipulative pattern. Baby steps doesn't mean she'll never fall down again.

Perfect! These are the tangible kinds of things I needed to know that I was aiming for. They seem rather obvious in retrospect, but I needed the picture.

Once she sees her man is not going to be bossed around, she may try to act all hurt or whatever......but it's one of her manipulative tricks. Just like she pulled on you the other night. If you'll stick to your guns, it will cause respect to grow in her heart, even of she does not tell you. She can't help it, b/c that is how God made the woman.

Your Adam and Eve analogy was great. Completely illustrates how the attraction is tied to the respect which is tied to the sin. It's simple! If you are without virtue (in this case, respect), you are with sin. There isn't a "neutral". As humans and sinners, we are constantly fighting the battle in between. The key point is that you cannot remain in the in-between, it's one or the other. And the sin will always lurk.

You've explained how respect is sort of the "cure" for waywardness. That helps show me that is curable, but also why it is not easy or instant to do so. And if and when it is, it must always be maintained.

[44tries]

Mowgli,

I loved your post because it was so plain and to the point. You broke the whole thing down and told it how it is. That's the script and we already know how it goes.

I agree that revealing the A needs to end up being the capstone to my revolution efforts. But like you said I need to be truly ready, on all fronts. I am getting there. One of my major hold-backs is the fact that I can't physically walk out and leave the home. You stated your situation worked with just separate living arrangements? My thoughts so far are that I will tell her to get all of her things out of the master bedroom. She has no business coming in there anymore. But this isn't as powerful as leaving and I'm worried if it will be enough. However, I think in the end the important thing will be that I am truly non receptive to any manipulation attempts, I am fully detached, and she knows I am on the fast track out and not looking back. My demand for respect needs to be crystal clear and her fear of loss real.

Steve,

I understand the worry about it being viewed as pursuit or control. I think as long as it isn't a negotiation of any kind, and I stick to my guns and pull it off properly, it will be a statement of boundary and demand for respect. I will not be "asking" anything of her. The real issue is being able to pull it off properly. She will play every card in the deck and you nailed it with the snooping accusations. She will likely deny till she's blue, then turn it around to my snooping, and any other twisting she can manage. I need to be strong and prepared.

So I'm taking my time. But there's no denying it has to be part of the plan.

[44tries]

I need to go read your whole thread, Mowgli. The "root problem" of your MR seems very similar to mine and your outcome exactly what I am trying to achieve. I am really glad you stopped by my thread.

[sandi2]

You've explained how respect is sort of the "cure" for waywardness. That helps show me that is curable, but also why it is not easy or instant to do so. And if and when it is, it must always be maintained.

Waywardness is a choice........just like sin is a choice. She has to choose to do the right thing. She may not experience feeling respect in heart right away, but if she chooses to give respect to her H, the feelings will follow. If that maintains, her desire will return for him.

I made the decision to do the right thing and end my A and stay in my M. I did not feel it in my heart, right away. However, I purposedly showed respect for my H. It had become a spiritual matter for me, b/c of the A and everything else about my waywardness. I had to do a lot work on my heart, b/c I had many years of resentment and bitterness. So, I had to pray and repent to God and ask Him to restore my love for my H again. I thought that would take care of it. But not quite, b/c I had not forgiven my H for the stuff I held against him over the past. It got to the place I could sleep at night b/c of the weight of my own actions and the unforgivness in my heart. It is hard to let go of decades of old hurts and anger. If my H could forgive my betrayal, then why couldn't I forgive him for the past? God helped me to think back on many of those old hurts and see where I had failed to respond the right way. We were both young and two very different people trying to learn how to merge as one. I finally let it go, forgave my H, and went to him with in true humility and brokenness to sincerely apology and ask if he could please forgive me. Previously, that was too hard to do b/c I had a lot of pride.

I don't think I was ever the manipulative type. I don't think I had a sense of self-entitlement. But when I crossed the line and started flirting with strangers on line......the formatt that was already in my heart took on the new excitement I found on the other side of a computer monitor. I had never kept a secret or deceived my H, up to that point. But I became two-faced, secretive, deceptive, and hid my on line activities. It's very embarrassing for me to even talk about it now. I knew better. I had a strict code of conduct that would never have compromised or stooped to this line of degrading behaving. I had reached what I call the looney-tune stage, where the WW is caught up in getting her ego food and feeding her fantasy. She pretty much tunes everything and everyone else's importance down to a very low key. I lived in front of the computer. I would come in from work, barely speak to my H and head for the computer, which was in another room of the house. That became my world, and I barely went through the motions of any special events in the family. I would put on a fake smile, but all the time fidgeting to get back online to the OM I had met.

I didn't boss my H around, or do some things like other WW's I read about. I ha a sharp tongue, and I'm sure I've cut him deeply at times. By the time I was readhing the peak of my rebellios stage, I just wasn't interested enough to boss or drill him. I would get very aggravated when he didn't get the yard work done or have the car washed, or bring aome new hoard to add to his growing collection, or find a job.......things like that. . I had emotionally D him. I didn't care what he did (or so I thought at the time), just as long as he didn't bother me. I was getting more & more consumed by the fantasy, and it was the only thing that had caused a spark in my body for years. I basically isolated my H. He mostly stayed in the front part of the house, while I stayed in the back .......which was what I wanted.

I would paint an unattractive picture of my H to my mother, siblings, kids, etc. Over time and I as my disrespect grew, my demonizing of him grew worse. Once OM entered the scene, I was really verbally tearing my H apart to family. I did not go outside the family b/c he held a public role that I knew I could harm if I said anything negative to anyone other than immediate family. I was planning to leave, and OM told me he would come get and take me back with him. I was hesitant b/c it meant giving up my job and health insurance (which was a big deal) and leaving most of my things and going to a huge city. It was a little frightening. I told OM I would like to get an apartment in a neary town and commute to work. He could fly in to see me on weekends. He even said he would help me financially. I think it was the first or second crack in the golden egg I saw, when he called me one night and I was telling him about checking out some apartments. I could tell he had been drinking (which was a little turn off for me), but anyway I needed to know how much I could expect from him.....b/c finances were going to extremely tight. I was expecting him to offer to pay the rent, at least. I mean he had bragged about his job and big income and setting me up in a place to stay. So when he said he was thinking about a couple hundred a month, I froze. My heart dropped down to my toes. He immediately knew he messed up and said he could do more, yada, yada.

I don't even know why I got off into telling about my story. I think I was pointing how I treated my H. I was cold and secretive. I did not give him near enough credit to notice anything was different about me. I certainly didn't give him enough credit to run the computer history and read the messaging between OM and myself......and see some pictures I had posted, or research the OM. I think my H suffered a light heart attack as a result of reading what had transpired. What happened to his W? This was a woman he did not know! He had M a good Christian girl, who was seen as this proper, supportive, loving W.......in the public eye. He later told me he thought he had a light attack, and he already had heart trouble, so it's a wonder it didn't kill him for real. His health took a dive and he hasn't been the same since. Not only do I blame myself for that, but we had had a trust that was pure, and we both treasured it. Apparently, I didn't treasure it enough. I wasn't even considering any of that stuff, once I was caught up in the affair fog.

So anyway, every WW is a bit different in her individual story. However, there is core line that seems to link wayward W's together, and that is usually what I can spot pretty quickly. The signs of disrespect for her H, the resentment coming out in various forms, and the rebellion shown in various forms and degrees. Years before I finally stepped over into la-la land, I could get b'tchy, hostle, go cold for days, gripe about his family being priority over me and the kids, etc. I would tell him over and over what I needed from him in our MR. But he would shut down and it was like talking to a stone wall. In time, I felt as if my insides were dead. I had been very depressed for a long time when I got caught up playing games on line. I was bored and looking for something as a distraction, but I seriously never thought about an innocent game leading to other things. That was ignorance on my part, I suppose.

Anyway, your W is younger, there are no kids in the MR, so most of her focus is on you........even though she has OM on the side just for kicks. You seem to be her physical target b/c it's just the two of you. It might be her nature to be a little bossy, IDK. That's not to say she can't tame it. I believe the core issue in your MR is the fact she is the breadwinner and she sees you being dependent upon her. She is not handeling this with grace & poise. She acts as if it gives her right to lord over you. It gives her certain entitlements and expectations from the non-working spouse. She loses sight of your goal, which is earning your Master's Degree in Education, and she begins seeing you as lazy and freeloading. (Remember, her mindset is all about what she wants). She decides if she's going to support you, then you need to earn your keep by treating her like a queen when she comes home. And to make sure you don't get lazy, she is going to assign certain projects to your "to do" list. She gets more & more controlling, wanting to know how you spent every part of the day. She begins to think you should give an account to her........even ask her if you can do certain things.......b/c her mindset is getting more & more out of balance and the waywardness is taking over. When it takes over, she operates out of her selfish emotions, instead of that part of her brain that has logic and reasoning.

Everything is about her and how it makes her feel. Currently, she feels no sexual attraction for you, so she tells you that she doesn't think you should sleep together. She feels in charge of the home, the relationship, and the H. So, that's how she is going to behave, as if she is in charge. She gets something out of it, or she would change her style. Perhaps it gives her a sense of satisfaction to tell you to fix her dinner and serve her plate, or run up the stairs to take her something.......but there is a selfish motivation behind it all. She practically told off on herself in that phone conversation when she said she wanted others (meaning you) to return favors to her. She sees bringing home the bacon as her big favor to you, and the least you could do is return it by catering to her. What she fails to realize is how that dynamic robs her respect for you, b/c she has placed herself in this phoney self entitled position over her H........so she lacks honest appreciation when he fixes her plate and takes to her, or drives her to work, etc. When she has that mode of self entitlement, she can't appreciate your efforts. Make sense? So, she bears down harder, demanding (in her own special ways), and becomes more manipulative. If one card doesn't win the hand, she play the next one. What you saw in the conversation with her, was her playing you. She's good at it. Very sly, I might add. But she's young, and I saw right through her. She twisted things around by acting hurt (and acting, she was) b/c she had an agenda to quickly get you back under her control.

I told you that you had set yourself back, but you can quickly catch up to speed again. Set realist goals. Write them out here, and if you need help, you know I am here to offer it if you want it. Set some short term goal, then have some longer term goals. We can talk about them and what you can do to reach those goals. Start with just three to five goals, before spending too much time on thinking it through. Write them out here and let's take a look. If you are on the right goal setting track, then you can make as many as you want. Make the goals for the only person you control.

Don't let feelings of defeat make you throw in the towel. Okay? Every newcomer experiences it b/c he is having to learn a lot of new ways of interacting with his WW.

((hugs))

[RR17]

Sandi2 I say this from a point of pragmatic interest, not mear flattery. Post like this are oh so helpful in helping LBHs understand what probably or may be going on in the minds and hearts of WAW/WW.

As men, we like to understand the why as well as a possible behind the curtain look at what to expect and hope for. Your stories are honest and a success. This brings understanding as well as hope.

The "what to do" are great for the noobies. The insightful personal experience posts help those that are holding stay motivated.
The above post should be linked to, and referenced for future LBH.

[SteveLW]

sandi, every time I read your story I think more and more about how much you sound just like my wife. And though my problems were different than your H's, it still resonates with me on many points, right down to checking her PC and finding the messages and pictures.

What is awesome is that you were able to pull yourself out of it. My W did the same thing in 2005 with her first EA. 12 years later, at the end of last year, her attitude was completely different. In 2005 she immediately said she wanted to save the MR. In Dec. 2017 she immediately said she didn't want to be married anymore. This was a huge blow, since I thought, like in 2005 when I confronted, she'd knock it off.

So what was the difference? 2 things, her level of waywardness. In 2005 she was dabbling, toe in the water. It was more emotional than anything physical (no pictures, etc). In 2017 she was full blown wayward, pictures and other activities no doubt.

The main difference is exactly what sandi said, lack of respect. In 2005 she still respected my leadership, my providing, and me as a H. In 2017 that respect was gone.

I've slowly been rebuilding it, but it takes time.