[s]No[/s] affair, no feelings...is there hope? III

[44tries]

I tried to address these concerns in my thread, Help for the Newcomer LBH with a WW.
Anyway, it didn't take long for me to realize some of the advice being shared was not going to work on a wayward W.
Applying soft love was not going to sprout any respect in her heart.
Even if a woman just left b/c she could no longer tolerate living with her H, her entire attitude is different than that of a WW.

I understand the exact distinction you have used to separate WAW vs WW is rather unique to you, but I want to tell you that once you really get it, it's one of the most insightful things on the board. It is completely accurate. I think there are sooo many newcomer LBHs that do not get it. And it is so easy to fall into that trap of is my W a WAW that just became WW...is she really WW at all...etc etc. But when you use the simple distinction that is the core of your philosophy it all becomes so simple and there is no way to be confused. So I think your distinction is invaluable, it's just so hard to grasp at first for some reason--or at least it was for me until the lightbulb moment.

Not only do the majority of newcomer men have wayward W's, and the men tend to have NGS. I don't believe that is just a coincident. IRL, every WW I have met, usually has a nice guy H. The more you study it, the more it makes sense. But anyway, the H has a really difficult time applying tough love methods, b/c of his own psychological makeup. However, it was his passive, easy-going, "yes dear", subservient, undecivise, beta ways that lost respect of his W. She has turned into a disrespectful control freak or bully, or she's doing something that shows rebellion and disrespect..........while he just takes cover in his shell. This clearly makes matters worse.

Absolutely NO coincidence. I have done so much reading here and I can honestly say I am blown away. This is a systemic problem! I know it's hard and somewhat disillusioning to apply science to love, but the data is all there. This is why I subscribe wholeheartedly to your thoughts on the matter.

So here's the thing. I don't try to force anyone to take my advice, okay? All you have to do is tell me you had rather use a softer approach, and I will back away. If you feel that a particular piece of advice is too firm, then say so. This is your life, not mine.

It definitely pushes me out of my comfort zone, but that's the point! I want to do what works. If you feel that whatever level of firmness you suggest is optimal, then that's what I want to hear. It doesn't mean I will just follow you blindly, but I realize I am a first-quarter freshman and you are the professor.

In many cases like yours, the W places her H in the friend zone. She is not sexually attracted to him, but she wants his companionship/friendship. She usually controls the relationship without much effort, b/c her H thinks it's easier to just try and make her happy rather than stand up to her. B/c of his gentleness and desire for his M to last, he often has trouble seeing the extent of her manipulation. Perhaps this is denial on his part, in order to continue living with her, IDK.

I think my W was particularly cunning about the friend zone issue. She really got me at first, because in the beginning right after DB she wanted me to leave remember? This made me question if she was really trying to cake eat. But looking back, I think she knew all along I was not going anywhere and used it to make herself look innocent (of cake eating, that is). It's hard to think of it as such a calculated plan--and I think the reality is probably a little muddier--but I understand this is the mindset that I need to have because this is what reality boils down to.

Then perhaps you need to evaluate your situation and set new goals, based on the information you have.

I think this is what all my long-winded posting was trying to say

I agree with it. But take for example.......when you first read DR, maybe one of your goals was for you and W to share the same bed......or that she would be happier.......or she would talk more.......whatever. At that time, you had not even considered she might be wayward in her heart, much less in behavior, right? Now, you see that there are other things that must be achieved, like having her respect will lead to attraction, etc. Now, your eyes are being opened to just how manipulative she is, and it's upsetting for you. I think you feel a bit defeated and hopeless b/c you were wanting to see baby steps by this time. At the stage, baby steps don't come right away. And besides, you have not long ago even tried to flex your independent, manly muscles to GAL.

You described it perfectly. I'm shifting my view to see reality, but I think my eyes need to adjust and show me more than just a totally evil person. Obviously, you are not a totally evil person. WW does not equal sociopath. Sometimes it feels like that's what everyone is trying to tell me W is. And I would be running and not looking back if that were the case.

In the end, it is the bad dynamics at play, but they have instilled some very serious behavioral problems in her due to the total loss of respect. I am getting it. And you are right, I am still in such an early stage. I do not need to see a bunch of baby steps right away. I think I was just seeing a lot of ones I was looking for with my "old" goals, and getting confused because I knew they weren't really meaning anything positive. Hence, I felt directionless.

When she stops secretly contacting other men, it is a positive step. When she stops asking you to do this & that for her while she sits on her rear, and she waits on herself, it will be progress. When she stops acting like your mother, it will be progress. When she stops drilling you about every move you make, will be progress. Most of these will come in baby steps. They won't disappear and magically change overnight. This has been the behavior pattern for a long time, so whenever she slips or if she tests you.....then it's up to you to set her straight immediately, or she'll fall back into that old manipulative pattern. Baby steps doesn't mean she'll never fall down again.

Perfect! These are the tangible kinds of things I needed to know that I was aiming for. They seem rather obvious in retrospect, but I needed the picture.

Once she sees her man is not going to be bossed around, she may try to act all hurt or whatever......but it's one of her manipulative tricks. Just like she pulled on you the other night. If you'll stick to your guns, it will cause respect to grow in her heart, even of she does not tell you. She can't help it, b/c that is how God made the woman.

Your Adam and Eve analogy was great. Completely illustrates how the attraction is tied to the respect which is tied to the sin. It's simple! If you are without virtue (in this case, respect), you are with sin. There isn't a "neutral". As humans and sinners, we are constantly fighting the battle in between. The key point is that you cannot remain in the in-between, it's one or the other. And the sin will always lurk.

You've explained how respect is sort of the "cure" for waywardness. That helps show me that is curable, but also why it is not easy or instant to do so. And if and when it is, it must always be maintained.